Liberty in America, Hating the Brits & The Fourth Turning.

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    • #89486

        This is a bit of a combination post and is intended to get a few things off my chest, and challenge the narrative. I will mince no words when I tell you that the state of things in this country right now appalls me. We have just had July the 4th and as a (former) Brit I have seen my share of dumb statements that drive me nuts.

        Anyway, this is what I think: I will ‘recast’ for you the American Revolution. I know you won’t like it, because you have been reared on your own historical propaganda. In simple terms, the events surrounding 1776 were a civil war between the British Crown and Aristocratic landlords in the US, who were British. The colonies were British and had been for a couple of hundred years. The beginnings of America were British.

        In the 1776 civil war, there were various actors. The British Regular Army, Hessian mercenaries, the Rebels, the Colonial Loyalists, and the French Navy. When Paul Revere made his ride, what he was actually yelling was “The Regulars are coming.” Not the British, because everyone was British.

        When the Regulars marched to Lexington, they were met by British Colonial Militia. Yes, yes, farmers with guns blah blah, but they were actually a militia, trained to be able to fight with the weapons of the day. However, nothing should take away from the huge achievement of the rebels. I won’t go on here about that fact that Britain was involved in a huge war with France, and that a tiny percentage of combat power was only ever able to be given up to fight in the American colonies. For the colonies, this was a life and death struggle; for Britain, it was a sideshow. Same with 1814 etc: for Americans relating this on July 4th, it is everything, for the British Empire at the time it was nothing but a side-show to achieve specific political objectives. In short, there is a lot of American Hubris over events about 200 years ago, not really tied to any general awareness of world events at the time. Much of this can be traced to American ethnocentrism safe behind the ocean walls that protect this country. Consider this: Britain was involved in a total war with the French Empire, which was not concluded until the defeat of Napoleon in 1815 at the Battle of Waterloo. By today’s standards, the relatively small taxes levied in the Colonies were to help pay for that war. It was extremely self centered for the Rebels to pick that time to conduct a revolution: and don’t forget the large number of Colonial Loyalists who stayed loyal. I have not studied it, but given the war in Europe, I am interested to know who it was that Britain sent to the Colonies as Regular troops in order to fight the rebellion. What was their standard? Were they green troops or hardened veterans who were sent for a needed rest? It’s an interesting point.

        None of the above is to say that I don’t think that ultimately the events of 1776 – 1787, resulting in the founding of the original thirteen colonies of America as a separate united country, was a bad thing. It’s just important to look at it in it’s true light. My understanding is that a lot of loyalists moved to Canada – it’s pretty poor form that the US then tried to invade Canada! Consider also Washington’s put-down of the Whiskey Rebellion – how hypocritical. In fact, that makes you smell a rat at the very beginning of the formation of the country. It was about the first new American tax. Many of the rebels were war veterans who believed that they were fighting for the principles of the American Revolution; against taxation without local representation, while the new federal government maintained that the taxes were the legal expression of Congressional taxation powers. Basically, we are the new government now, so let us commence with exactly what we supposedly fought the British over! Beginnings of Federal Government overreach! It makes you wonder at the real motives of the Revolution, and whether in fact it was a Colonial Aristocracy throwing off ties with the Monarchy at home, in order to create a new one in America, albeit with a notionally Liberty-minded Constitution in place? Is it any wonder Americans have had to struggle to hold the line with Liberty ever since, and largely failed?

        What this means, is that the Colonies were British in Nature, and the Founders were British. British guys like Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution. It was Brits who created America. But America is no longer British, culturally or ethnically. Britain itself, despite being a great leader historically in the fields of Liberty going back to the Magna Carta, never had a written constitution. It is still officially a Monarchy. It is a great shame that the innovations of the USC, the written Constitution with the Bill of Rights, could not have migrated to the UK itself. The fact that the UK has an unwritten (evolved) constitution is what has ensured that there has never been any effective protection against tyranny. Such as with gun confiscation in the UK.

        So the colonies evolved, after the Revolution (Civil War) into America with the written Constitution. It was the USC that set the stage for what is called American Exceptionalism. Well, that and the fact that other world powers were exhausted after WWII, and the US protected behind it’s ocean walls was able to step up to be a superpower. It is the Liberty which is laid down and protected in the USC that allowed for American Exceptionalism. Britain, for example never had protected Liberty, and has devolved into a socialist hellhole.

        But the issue for me is not how much more free the US may be than the UK, which is where everyone always goes with this, but that the US is no longer free as it should be. America is supposed to be the Shining City on the Hill. It is only the existence of the Bill of Rights that has prevented mass gun confiscation here in the US. Those wonderful British Founders wrote that down, and it has staved off the excesses of statism since. But it is only the existence of the BOR that has prevented those statist excesses. It is certainly not the American people.

        Over the last 240 years, it has been Americans who have failed to hold the line in terms of Liberty and the USC. No one else. As a legal (British) immigrant, I find this tragic. I find most of the US to be a simple psyop, this red white and blue costume wearing ridiculousness where everyone declares themselves to be free, but are in fact not. So long as we endlessly go on about being free, it will somehow make it true? There is something there though: due to ‘manifest destiny’ and the occupation of the whole of the current land mass of the United Sates – going from ‘These’ United States to ‘The’ United States, perhaps their was always something inevitable about the strangling growth of government. The Civil War in 1860 killed the Constitution by denying the Constitutional right of States to secede from the voluntary union of These United States; Lincoln was a tyrant. Post-WWII, when taking over the role of worlds policeman from the UK, and the subsequent Cold War, it almost makes you wonder if there was any room left at all for Jeffersonian Liberty? Could the Constitution cope with the vastness of the new America? Huge immigration by non-British-ethnic groups who perhaps did not see the value in Rightful Liberty and Individual Responsibility, which were concepts of the Enlightenment – or those immigrants were never truly allowed it once they did arrive? It seems like it could not.

        I have been nothing but shocked at the authoritarian statist socialistic society that I have encountered in the US, that I observe daily. The idiotic political scene on both sides. The leftists appear to root for pie in the sky socialism (read communism) as if they have a mental illness. The ‘right’ is in some weird place where they cheer their own handcuffs. Everyone seems to want to tell everyone else what to do. What about Rightful Liberty?

        “Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add ‘within the limits of the law’ because law is often but the tyrant’s will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.” Thomas Jefferson

        What do I mean by my comments about ‘conservatives’? How about this whole ‘thin blue line’ thing? The whole ‘law enforcement’ thing is in a horrible place in the US. Do I think there should not be any police? No. I think we need Peace Officers; there are enough idiots in this modern society that we cannot rely on Individual Responsibility anymore, and need people to be involved full-time with policing those morons. Because:

        “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” John Adams

        The problem is that ‘law enforcement’ is there on paper to enforce the law, and if that is unconstitutional but enacted by lawmakers, they will do so, if they want to keep their jobs and pensions. If it is revenue collecting, or enforcement of malum prohibitum laws, or gun confiscation when it comes down to it. Potentially law enforcement is the future enforcement arm of a socialist authoritarian state, and as such would be at odds with Rightful Liberty. Or are they? I think a lot of that will depend on individual departments and where in the country they are from. It is well known than some States are ‘behind enemy lines’ as socialist ‘gun-free-zone’ hellholes. It is also true that there are a lot of police officers who support armed citizens. As the screws tighten, there will be some hard decisions for departments and individual officers.

        Just look at the tax rates in this country, there to raise revenue for government and allow wealth redistribution for socialist welfare policies. Look at the fact that you can no longer own property in the US, due to property tax. This means you can never own anything outright, property or land, because you have to keep paying the Crown to be allowed to keep it.

        Look at the constant infringements onto the Second Amendment, already in place and constantly coming. And what is worse is that whenever a possible infringement is enacted or announced as planned (Virginia, right now, looking at you): All people do is see how they can skate around it. The 2A is for the purpose of preventing tyranny, but it will never work , however many firearms are in private hands, if the country does not have the moral courage to stand up and stop that tyranny. It is just one line in the sand after another, never being acted on as each one is crossed.

        I’m certainly not on the left, but neither am I on the ‘right.’ Does this make me an anarchist? I don’t think so. I just really dislike being coerced into anything. I want my Liberty, Rightful Liberty. Do I want no government at all? Probably not, because we have to be real about where we are in today’s day and age, and threats that we face. But I think government should be absolutely minimalist, an administrative function to keep essential services in play. For example, you can’t defend against the international threats we face today, with a country this size, with a part-time militia; you need some form of standing army, counter to what the Founders wanted, because of the day and age in which they lived. You need a place for professional soldiers and ‘train the trainers’ to exist in case of mass mobilizations. These are all practical matters. But minimalist government with very low flat rate taxes, that I would consent to, works for me. It’s one thing to be all anarchist, but I think we live in a world of realpolitik and we need to take account of that. ‘Voluntarists’ will be furious at me for this. But the truth is that I want my Rightful Liberty, and I want a return to the freedom that America should enjoy, but I am no political scientist and I cannot tell you what the ultimate working system should be to bring that about. Some of this, I just don’t know, or have not followed the logic all the way through to discover the best system.

        I know that Americans are going to constantly tell themselves that they are the best at everything, which is hugely hubristic and has no empirical basis. Such as having the best military in the world. Really? In my opinion, it is not. It is definitely huge, and there is a huge military-industrial complex, and a lot of great technology. But a military reflects it’s society and American society is toast. I know that I recall that the British Army was far better tactically than the US Army will ever be, probably due to quality over quantity, better selection and training. But UK society is also toast, so I have no idea if that remains true. That is my opinion by observation. One thing about the US military is that it is so huge that it is a hideous bureaucracy, and also a social experiment. I genuinely fear for the result of a peer to peer conventional battle. No, I’m not saying that the US necessarily loses, but I fear the loss of life. When the better trained US formations such as Special Operations elements have been through the ringer, or are not deployed in theater due to strategic priorities, then you are back to the run of the mill US military with poor levels of training and priorities more to do with equal opportunities and sexual discrimination training than actual warfighting.

        But here is the true tragedy. When I served in the British Military, and later as a contractor, I had no illusions about what I was doing. I am a professional soldier. In the UK, it is always couched in terms that the military serves the ‘National Interest’, which basically means the wishes of the government of the day. Nobody tells themselves that anything they do is helping to protect or increase freedom in the UK itself. Deploy to Helmand, Afghanistan? That is for the specific purpose of the National Interest such as reconstruction of Afghanistan, geopolitical reasons. But in the US, the psyop tells everyone that deployments to the Middle East are something to do with freedom in the US? It is tragic. No one doubts the sacrifice, but the military industrial complex does not give a crap. This makes American troops evangelists on deployments, for the greater cause of freedom in the US. Tie that in with poor cultural awareness of the world outside of America, the export of ‘Americana’ on deployment, and a huge amount of ‘othering’ of people in other parts of the word, and you have a recipe for atrocity. How absolutely bizarre! But, the psyop is a great way to get the sons (and daughters) of the country behind an endless war abroad. To me, it is a great tragedy that when these brave souls come home broken or dead, they still believe that they were somehow fighting for Liberty at home, when in fact they joined the professional legions to fight the Empire’s wars abroad – there is nothing wrong with that, but be honest with yourselves! Professional soldiering is a career, not an evangelical crusade for ‘Freedom’ in America.

        Well, someone will tell me that we are fighting terrorism there and that keeps it out of the US, but in fact we created more insurgency / terrorists by being out there than there ever were before. The bottom line is that the primary reason we are there is for the National Interest, be that oil, strategic positioning, etc. Am I saying we should not be there? Not necessarily. Maybe we do need to go to war with Iran – but the point being, that has nothing to do with Liberty / Freedom in the US. These are separate things. In fact, since 9/11, everything has been about reducing domestic liberty, such as the Patriot Act, and as such the wars since have made us less free, not more. Despite the fact that 9/11 was endlessly tragic, it fractured something in the American psyche: perhaps due to the fact that there really has never been anything like a real domestic terror campaign in the US, and the US is protected behind the ocean walls? For example I was born in Northern Ireland when my Father served there, and since 1969 the UK has lived with real terror and bombings both in Northern Ireland and on the mainland. I grew up in an army family and got used to closing curtains at night before the lights went out to foil assassination, and checking under cars in the morning on military housing for car bombs, because it was a real threat. But since 9/11, whatever happened to the American psyche, it has resulted in less freedom, not more.

        America is certainly no longer a British place. In fact, those of British ancestry appears to be way down on the list. It seems that Germans make up the largest racial group? Is that true, from a quick search on the internet? If so, it certainly explains a lot, perhaps certainly State Trooper uniforms, and the rush to an authoritarian society! The ignorance I see when people tell me that I should be thankful to America that I am not speaking German after WWI and WWII disgusts me. Simply rude and ignorant. What makes it doubly ironic is that American society has become very authoritarian. You don’t have to even go so far as the ‘sir-yes-sir’ robotic ridiculousness of many of the drone-like officers in military service, who would not know a lawful order from an unlawful one, and will simply do what they are told for ‘Merica (whatever they think that is in their mind). Exhibiting terrible leadership and betrayal of their soldiers simply through poor officer selection and training resulting in the hash we have today. Having been through officer selection, training and a career as part of the British Army, which is very selective, I have frankly been amazed at what I have seen here. Oh yes, there are some good ones, but in the minority. Well, it seems to me that America has been very much focusing on being good little Germans.

        One thing seems to be true, and that is that many of us feel we are on the “left side” of a moment in history. Such as being in 1860 or 1939. Well, I am about half way through a book called the ‘Fourth Turning.’ This is a historical book that was published in 1997, and explains the Saecula and the patterns of history. No, it is not Nostradamus, but it seems to have accurately charted British and then British-American and then American history in terms of the Saecula (roughly the length of a long life) and the four generations that inhabit and move through each period. We had the ‘hero’ generation, the G.I. generation that fought WWII. In 1997 the historical evidence pointed to somewhere around 2020 for the next crisis. We are right now in the unraveling period. This is a circular progression through history and can be quite well predicted. What cannot be predicted, is what form this crisis will take, and what the result of it will be. But it should be a period of history from which the country will emerge and continue with the Saecula. This does not mean victory, or defeat, but it does mean that it will be a crisis period. Often these have resulted, or revolved around, large wars. Could it be Iran, or something unforeseen as an unintended consequence?

        I would certainly recommend this book. For preppers, it gives you something to go on. It situates things nicely beyond the bad feeling we all have in this time of the unraveling.

        One thing is certain, and that is we cannot continue the way we are going. Well, we can, if we want less and less Liberty, more and more surveillance, and the emergence of corporate technological governance of our way of life. Something needs to happen. I know many fall into the trap of wanting a ‘reset’ after some sort of ‘boogaloo’, but that in itself is madness. You can plan to ride the tiger, but you have no idea what you will end up with at the other side of that; it could be worse. You can’t really do anything without a popular movement to make things happen, and that will not happen while Americans still believe they are free, and still sit fat and happy in front of the TV with a pizza. We can have a little hope, and the belief that we may reach another ‘turning’ (or crisis) where people reverse their opinions and believe more in Liberty. I know many criticize the younger millennial generations, but I am not so sure. I know I am apparently from the Nomad generation that is supposed to furnish mid-level leaders in the time of crisis, and in fact the millennials are marked down to be the next hero generation. Will it be so?

        No, I can’t furnish you with a ‘plan for the boogaloo.’ You cannot go marching in the streets and expect to achieve anything without popular support. If you wish for that black swan event, you don’t know who or what will come out the other side. Possibly however, a crisis and growing popular support for liberty may give us a chance to seize some of it back. The best thing we can do is be proactive in educating our younger generations and those who are coming up as children now – because sadly this may all be on them. Be a part of your community. I know many prepper types are very much about retreating in an insular manner to the family level, with homeschooling and all that, but that may protect your kids but does not help educate the community. In fact it is counter-intuitive because you isolate your family, but the mass outside is only ever exposed to the brainwashing of the left – you and yours become the anomaly. We know for a fact that the left has completed the ‘Long March’ through the Educational establishment and these raging loony lefties are all very much involved in brainwashing children.Those who believe in Liberty need to STAND UP and be a part of educating the youth, through both schools and other programs.

      • #89487
        Joe (G.W.N.S.)

          Outstanding summary of where we find ourselves!

          The problem is…

          Finally don’t just read it and think good article, put it to work.

          …most will give you a big thumbs up and then continue to do nothing. :unsure:

          In regards to “The Fourth Turning,” I read it shortly after it was published. Interesting and compelling argument.

          The problem is most; if they do anything, will look no further than their selfish interests and use it to justify preparing for the coming crisis. Of course there is nothing wrong with preparing in fact I believe it’s a moral requirement!

          What irritates me is they fail to see the next steps after preparation.

          How do we bring about positive change as a result of this crisis?

          How do we not only recognize these cycles (Turnings), but circumvent them to break this cycle?

          We have certainly discussed the obstacle that Americans level of comfort presents to motivating them for true change.

          So what can be done to change the comfort level to instigate positive change?

          Theoretically it would not be difficult to create discomfort, but that is again a steep obstacle to overcome due to our inherent selfishness.

          Risk everything to promote positive change for all? :wacko:

          For most this is too much, they would rather hold on to their meager existence then risk failure and loss.

          So without willing people we are left with…

          All people do is see how they can skate around it.

          …skating around the system!

          Even with these options most are too lazy to do more than bitch about things.

        • #89488

            As someone with a short attention span when it comes to reading nowadays (I wasn’t always like this), it took me awhile to read this and ruminate on it. @Max It definitely flies in the face of what we were taught (indoctrinated) growing up in the 80’s. But that is what I like about this forum, getting different perspectives. I do remember reading about the Whiskey Rebellion and thinking to myself that it seemed hypocritical along with many other actions during the early beginning’s of this country.

            Outstanding summary of where we find ourselves!
            Risk everything to promote positive change for all? :wacko:

            For most this is too much, they would rather hold on to their meager existence then risk failure and loss.

            I’ve thought about this as well. Would I be willing to put at risk, everything, my life, my family, what liberty I do have, my property and possessions…… I recognize early that I had been indoctrinated, they teach us from an early age at school “no fighting, you don’t fight back, you don’t hit people” “follow the rules” etc.. which makes it an internal struggle with yourself to follow what you know is right. I’m still chewing on all of this and don’t have an ending to my response here yet……..

          • #89489

              Great post Max! As to the American population in general I think they have gotten to fat, dumb, and lazy, to rock the boat and stand up for Jefferson’s concept of individual liberty.

              And I would be willing to wager large sums of money (if I had it) that the vast majority of the population has been dumbed down to the point to where they cannot conceive such an idea, let alone muster up the ideas or guts to force the political/corporate elite to back down.

              Just initial thoughts, but I definitely agree with probably 99% of what you wrote.

              As for answers, I have nothing viable to offer.

            • #89490

                This is a really great post Max. Hits the nail right on the head. I’m very unsure that there is any hope for long term individual liberty as I think the majority of humankind are tyrants by nature. I dont think that the better part of us can overcome worst parts of our nature.

              • #89491

                  Great essay, couldn’t have said things better myself. :good:

                • #89492

                    @Max – GREAT post! I have shared it far and wide on facebook (gag)… Funny that I had a mssg from facebook today offering me a “badge” for being one of your biggest fans. hehehe… Me, an MVT fanboy – Whoda thunk it?


                    Anyway, I am constantly freaked out by how close you and I are politically. Fuck “authority”, leave me the hell alone, but put the actual shitheads in prison, or a shallow grave behind the prison… Ring true?

                    Related to the “Fourth Turning”, I would say to anybody reading this post: If you read it 20 years ago, or have not read it at all, READ IT NOW!……. As I have said multiple times on this forum, it is not a crystal ball, but it most definitely gives you perspective on where we are today, why we are there, and where we are heading.

                    Personally, being part of the “nomad generation”, I have little hope of living beyond the current “fourth turning”, but have LOTS of hope that what I do during this fourth turning will MATTER.

                    That is about all any of us can ask.

                    MVT Texas 2015-2020
                    Team Cowbell / Team Coyote / Team Rekkr

                  • #89493

                      Well, I was fairly worried about putting the post up, after I wrote it. I figured I would get a bunch of “But ‘Merica” type comments. But after a silence, there seems to have been a lot of positive comments, and I saw from FB that NC Renegade posted it up on their site.

                      I am tracking the @pinky thread on VA Gun Laws / infringements.

                      As a professional soldier, we always know there comes a time when you have to pay the piper. This situation in VA is making me sad. LOL, why it is always Virginia!

                      Either we hold the line in the 2A, or we disappear into history. No, I’m not expecting anyone to make any inflammatory statements on this forum, which of course is open. And no-one should ever do any crazy shit on their own anyway. No Dallas boogaloo boy crazy shit!

                      I am contemplating the idea of having a convention, up at the VTC, for a weekend. Where we can get together and discuss this.

                      Remember, we are in the right, our Liberty has been codified into the USC and the BOR, although it does not come from those documents. I don’t give a flying fuck what the lefties think, no one is taking away my Liberty.

                    • #89494
                      First Sergeant


                        Signal Out, Can You Identify
                        Je ne regrette rien
                        In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                      • #89495
                        Ronald Beal

                          I haven’t seen anything that refutes the theories of “The Fourth Turning” It also passes the smell test… it just makes sense when you get the perspective.

                          I would also recommend Max Boots “Invisible Armies:An Epic History of Guerrilla Warfare from Ancient Times to the Present” I know a few here have read it in the past, but seems to be apropos background for post crisis.

                        • #89496

                            Your history knowledge is sound Max. The issue is that most people do not understand that our freedom was already stolen when they constitution was drafted illegally and forced down the throats of the common man here in the US. I highly suggest reading An economic interpretation of the US constitution by Charles A. Beard. It was the Anti-Federalists were right. The founding myth that most Americans understand today was developed as propaganda to fight communism. There is no ‘magic dirt’ on this land nor any ‘exceptionalism’.. its about who is on the land that makes it great or not.

                            Anyway, I am constantly freaked out by how close you and I are politically. Fuck “authority”, leave me the hell alone, but put the actual shitheads in prison, or a shallow grave behind the prison… Ring true?

                            Big issue is that is the typical mindset who are from European stock and want a liberty. “Leave me alone” However they won’t leave you alone. You can move another exit down the highway and sooner or later they will catch up with you.

                          • #89497

                              Big issue is that is the typical mindset who are from European stock and want a liberty. “Leave me alone” However they won’t leave you alone. You can move another exit down the highway and sooner or later they will catch up with you.

                              I think much of America’s westward expansion what motivated by exactly this desire to be left alone by the busybody control-freaks who gravitate toward “leadership” in government. Unfortunately, there is no more “west” to go to.

                              Interesting book related to all of that –

                              Thomas Paine:
                              SOME writers have so confounded society with government, as to leave little or no distinction between them; whereas they are not only different, but have different origins. Society is produced by our wants, and government by our wickedness; the former promotes our happiness POSITIVELY by uniting our affections, the latter NEGATIVELY by restraining our vices. The one encourages intercourse, the other creates distinctions. The first is a patron, the last a punisher. Society in every state is a blessing, but Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one…

                              MVT Texas 2015-2020
                              Team Cowbell / Team Coyote / Team Rekkr

                            • #89498

                                Certainly have to put this on the reading list.

                              • #89499

                                  Best thing I’ve read in a very long time, we need to keep ourselves and others from believing that their are two options, right, and left. Because both are wrong. Liberty falls in the middle and sometimes has a hand in both parties and we need our loyalties to stay with our liberty, not a party, as its the definition of liberty which will never change where as a party moves with the winds. Thanks for taking the time to put this out there max, i believe its just what people need. Everyone needs this to be the one link they share with everyone they know!!!!

                                • #89500

                                    This was an amazing article.

                                    There was one statement (just one!..) I kinda disagree with:

                                    But the truth is that I want my Rightful Liberty, and I want a return to the freedom that America should enjoy, but I am no political scientist and I cannot tell you what the ultimate working system should be to bring that about.

                                    That’s simply not true, unless a “political scientist” means only those who have a degree in “political science”.

                                    Not one but two of my daughter’s former friends are currently political science majors in respectable universities on both coasts respectively.
                                    Both girls have spent their 1st year there getting drunk at least twice a week and serving as free prostitutes for fraternity boys (that’s one of the main functions of their sororities).
                                    I know both of those girls’ families. They are as mainstream as one can get (upper-middle class; far-left ideology), and in fact they spend a lot of money and effort to be and look mainstream.
                                    In other words, I have a pretty damn good idea what those political science “experts” will be like in 3 short years from now. They might even get employed by CNN, New York Times, Fox or other propaganda outlets and start teaching us proles how the world works and stuff.

                                    From my perspective, you are indeed not a political scientist because unlike all of them, you do know what the heck you talk about, and what you say makes perfect sense.

                                    […] I cannot tell you what the ultimate working system should be to bring that about.

                                    Actually, you described that system in your article.

                                    Thank you.

                                  • #89501

                                      Extract from Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith
                                      Paris Nov. 13. 1787.

                                      the people can not be all, & always, well informed. the part which is wrong [. . .] will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. if they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. we have had 13. states independant 11. years. there has been one rebellion. that comes to one rebellion in a century & a half for each state. what country before ever existed a century & half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms. the remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. what signify a few lives lost in a century or two? the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. it is it’s natural manure.


                                      We shall see what transpires after the next election or two. Democratic Socialism/Socialism/Communism all same same and equal tyranny.

                                    • #89502

                                        The convention idea sounds interesting and constructive – IF it can attract people who can calmly discuss some of the big issues objectively. I know several who are working at the community participation level already. While still privately maintaining and training with their group.

                                        Attitudes are ranging around waiting until forced to act… still trusting existing institutions to function as fairly as advertised… to cynicism and despair. Some of us cycle through all those phases at various times.

                                        But a convention with relevant discussion topics and an open but organized format could help build tribes who have some ideas in common. One can see that a common belief/value system would be important at some point, should it become necessary to muster those local groups together into a larger force or cooperate toward goals that would serve the common purpose.

                                        Keep us posted Max, if you decide to pursue this idea.

                                      • #89503

                                          Max has a razor sharp view of history. Thank you for that. Almost all Americans have a myopic view of the founding of the united States as we are so far away from that event and because…Murica!!!!

                                          A couple of years ago I sent Max a couple of pamphlets on common law and how (and why) it was uprooted and supplanted by the statute law system that makes the tyranny we labor under possible. If we are ever to return to any semblance of rightful liberty we must return to the common law system. We also must return to state Citizenship rather than Federal Citizenship. But that can of worms is a mile deep.

                                          These are a couple of the steps necessary to break the power the fedgov has over the states and the people individually.

                                        • #114651

                                            We can have a little hope, and the belief that we may reach another ‘turning’ (or crisis) where people reverse their opinions and believe more in Liberty. I know many criticize the younger millennial generations, but I am not so sure. I know I am apparently from the Nomad generation that is supposed to furnish mid-level leaders in the time of crisis, and in fact the millennials are marked down to be the next hero generation. Will it be so?

                                            It occurred to me that the hero cycle could indeed be manifesting right now, just not in physical warfare but rather information warfare. There are rising heroes in the info-sphere (social media, youtube, internet in general) combatting authoritarian narratives and censorship efforts. Their weapons are video production, citizen journalism, and communication skills. They go up against establishment goliaths and slay with their words. The best among them go viral and change minds. They make a name for themselves that way, on their own merit, like the heroes of old.

                                            Of course if all that goes poof with a collapse, it’ll be physical force that comes to the forefront again. But at least right now, the action’s happening in the media (and judicial) spheres, and any heroism among the young would probably be concentrated there.

                                            Just saw this article too:

                                            Flynn, Papadopoulos to speak at event preparing ‘social media warriors’ for ‘digital civil war’ – Former national security adviser Michael Flynn and ex-Trump campaign adviser George Papadopoulos are slated to speak at a social media conference preparing “patriots” for a “digital civil war.

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