Interesting review of a "sleeper" Battlerifle

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    • #101851
      Corvette
      Participant

      • #101852
        Max
        Keymaster

          This looks to have potential. With a chrome-lined, hammer-forged barrel, use of P-Mags, a weight of 8.6 lbs, and a price point around $1525 – it has some attractive features in its class. It might be worth getting one and doing some T&E with it so you can decide if it is a choice you could depend on.

        • #101853
          Corvette
          Participant

            I always felt Ruger’s AR belong right up there in features and qualities among the even more expensive boutique rifles.
            Think about it For the SR556 and SR762 they run a chromed piston system AND a chromed bolt/BCG.

            Thats a lot of value and almost overkill

          • #101854
            Eric
            Participant

              The ruger rifles are very nice, fit and finish second to none, But weighing in at almost 9 pounds empty is huge for an ar style rifle. By the time you add optics, light, laser,sling, etc, you will have a ten pound AR.

              I haven’t shot one, but handled several, and they are extremely front heavy. While this does tend to keep the muzzle down for more rounds on target, that additional 4 pounds over a standard AR platform adds up when carried all day.

              Edited to add: I am a dumbass, I missed that it is the 7.62 caliber.

            • #101855
              Baldrick
              Participant

                Still, there are trimmer 308 caliber AR platforms out there. Smith and Wesson’s M&P 10 comes in at just under 8 IIRC, and the SCAR 17 (while much more expensive) is also under 8. Sometimes though I wonder if I’m not just a pussy, because guys like JC Dodge from Mason Dixon schlep around a 15 lb M1A with optics and a Sage Chassis. If I were running one I would likely make a few modifications to an M and P 10, like a lightweight free floated rail and a beter stock and maybe a 1-4 scope. You coudl stay under 10 loaded. For the time being, I’ll stick with my 6 lb AR :-)

              • #101856
                Corvette
                Participant

                  Baldrick your rights its heavier than the SW (which I dont like nearly as much though) and the SCAR 17 ( so expensive it might as well not exist for most of us)

                  Ruger makes some of the most accurate platforms in the business though and i believe this is the lightest piston 308, lighter than even some DI rifles.:D

                • #101857
                  Brian from Georgia
                  Participant

                    That adjustable gas system would be nice with a suppressor. If it gets good reports on reliability I’d consider it.

                  • #101858
                    Corvette
                    Participant

                      That adjustable gas system would be nice with a suppressor. If it gets good reports on reliability I’d consider it.

                      I hope it will be as good the the parts and spec sheet makes it look.
                      Hasnt been out for long but I for one would just LOVE it if this could be the “poor mans REPR ” many of us have been looking for.

                    • #101859
                      Eric
                      Participant

                        The Sig 716 falls in this category…

                        it is adjustable gas piston as well, and weighs in at 7lbs 6 ounces with a quad rail handguard standard.

                      • #101860
                        Corvette
                        Participant

                          The Sig 716 falls in this category…

                          it is adjustable gas piston as well, and weighs in at 7lbs 6 ounces with a quad rail handguard standard.

                          Good point!!!
                          Always eyed that gun.
                          My LGS told me they been having some problems though with 716’s .

                          Not sure how statistically relevant this is or how large the sample but he seemed pretty adamant about it..

                          But other than this caveat, I absolutely agree with you.
                          The SIG716, being based on the utterly sweet SIG516, is a very interesting rifle and may well be that “poor mans REPR”..

                        • #101861
                          Baldrick
                          Participant

                            The Sig has a 7.6 lb trigger pull, factory weight from Sigs website is 9.3 unloaded…pistons are just about always heavier, but life is full of compromises. That said, I have heard good things and they are reasonably priced and popular. I am glad that the 308 market continues to expand.

                          • #101862
                            Eric
                            Participant

                              Misread on my part…

                              I believe the sigs DID have some issues early on. There were several youtube videos about it. But I have become buddies with one of the LGS (local gun store) owners, and he says that he hasn’t seen any inherent issues with them.

                              Another one to consider is the DPMS recon LR 308. It is still gas impingement, but other than that, has some nice features for a reasonable price. I sold my DPMS 308 SASS rifle last year, and have regretted it ever since.

                            • #101863
                              Corvette
                              Participant

                                I have a deep and long standing love of the .308 family of cartridges; However if I have learned only one thing in the last 18 months, it is the importance of ammo availability. I live about 80 miles from the nearest firearms store, and go to town for supplies every 6 to 8 weeks. And to discover that the shelves were bare….there was not even a box of 30/06. And yet on the floor was 70 to 90 thousand rounds of 5.56X45 was a serious wakeup with a bucket of ice water in the face.

                                Even now after 18 months the shelves of Anchorage ammo (retail) suppliers are sparsely stocked.

                              • #101864
                                DiznNC
                                Participant

                                  Not to brew up a bunch of old crap again, but, I honestly believe a rifle that was designed as direct gas-impingement should stay that way, when you’re talking home defense, not hobby games. If you want a gas piston system, by all means, go and buy one. But to convert a direct impingement system to piston is just not the optimum solution, IMHO.

                                  We could get into all the engineering behind this, but I don’t think it’s necessary. Yes, it will work. Yes, a lot of guys shoot them. I’ll just say I’m not among them, and leave it at that.

                                  AR platforms in 7.62 just haven’t really haven’t impressed me either. I like the concept in theory, but I don’t know if I’d want to stake my life on one.

                                  I guess what I’m really trying to say is, with the stakes being so high, in our application, I want weapons systems, equipment, tactics, etc. that are robust, time-proven, sustainable, and affordable. Any weapons system that doesn’t have a proven track record, and spare parts, mags, ammo, etc. readily available, is a huge gamble when the chips are down.

                                  There are many good, new weapons in this category. The Remi ACR and FN SCAR, the Israeli Tavor, the Styer AUG A3, and FN fs2000. Not to mention the Beretta ARX 100, and the SIG556. The problem is, as I see it, that while they look promising, they are not time-proven, available/sustainable, and affordable.

                                • #101865
                                  Max
                                  Keymaster

                                    It looks to me like it is a refinement of the FN-FAL, which is a good rifle in its own right.

                                    Dang Ruger, got me wanting yet another rifle.

                                  • #101866
                                    Baldrick
                                    Participant

                                      Keeping it within the scope of this forum (armed and prepared civilians and SUT, as there are zillions of other places where you can find the annals of the caliber and DI/piston debate) there are great weapons systems out there to Diz’s point. I would love to own all the rifles in his post! Resupply and logistics have to be taken into account along with spare parts, etc. It’s a different focus for us here than for hobbyists, bench shooters, and people who enjoy just shooting on a square range (and that’s totally ok.) I do think though Diz that the 7.62 PMAG is becoming standard, but every manufacturer does their own specs on many of the 7.62 parts required for an AR in that caliber, which is a standarization issue. Looking through a book like Patriot Dawn, their already large potential logistics issues would have been made larger by everyone having a different rifle.

                                    • #101867
                                      Corvette
                                      Participant

                                        I know we are opening a can of worms here, but I’ll explore it a bit:

                                        Both Members bring up a valid point w/ us not being a hobbyist forum and as such we eye non-standard systems w/ deserved suspicion.

                                        But having a 7.62×51 in a magazine fed version allows for the fast follow up shots that a bolt action cannnot provide.
                                        And that is something pretty important for us IMO.
                                        And Bolt Actions are all non standard also…

                                        So if anyone does do 7.62×51/308 it has to be a mag fed gun.
                                        The FN FAL, G3/HK91, FNSCAR guns are even more exotic and from the logistics standpoint even less desirable.

                                        As for spare parts issues with the nonstandard nature of those guns;
                                        I think SHTF (or even a resistance campaign) you will likely not have access to the many many thousands of bullets it takes to wear out these modern AR10s (and I use the term loosely) anyway..

                                        And wouldnt it then make sense to get a high quality one that is less likely to have components break unless u put more rounds thru it than you will have Ammo anyway?
                                        (And Piston guns will help with that since moving parts stay MUCH cooler)

                                        Speaking of which, the adjustable gas piston will allow you to shoot a greater range of Ammo, and that is not a trivial factor SHTF.

                                        Also with AR based rifles of this caliber the training issue is (almost) moot.

                                        So in summary while Baldrick and Diz bring up excellent logical points the logical consequences of those would be to abandon that caliber all together.

                                        And that’s something I am not ready to do … because a unit fielding at least a couple semi auto rifles in a larger caliber will create problems for your opponents in how they design their tactical solutions/countermeasures. (The heart of the DMR concept)

                                        Just imagine the long range damage a quality marksman can cause to an OPFOR with a scoped version of this Ruger?
                                        (Or similar Class rifle)

                                        PS: I added a couple more review links by respected reviewers, for every body’s viewing pleasure

                                      • #101868
                                        Eric
                                        Participant

                                          It looks to me like it is a refinement of the FN-FAL, which is a good rifle in its own right.

                                          Dang Ruger, got me wanting yet another rifle.

                                          Like any man needs a reason to want “another” rifle?

                                        • #101869
                                          Eric
                                          Participant

                                            I have A Saiga .308 that I like a lot…

                                            with good ammo it shoots very nice groups, goes bang every time I pull the trigger, and was built for about five hundred less than it would cost to buy a good ar-10 platform rifle.

                                            Saiga

                                          • #101870
                                            Baldrick
                                            Participant

                                              I suppose there will be lots of 7.62 floating around as well. I can get out to 600 with 2.5-10x 556, but there was good discussion on the blog I remember from Misfit and we talked a lot about the DMR, guerrilla sniper, and retreat snipers, etc. Around Uw I think scoped rifles in the semi auto flavor are absolutely a force multiplier. Pass the 762 and the 556! For some groups, 7.62 may even be standard and more power to them.

                                            • #101871
                                              Roadkill
                                              Participant

                                                I have an old Armalite AR10 with an old 3-9 trijicon scope. It shoots well has never jammed on me, is a little heavy. Trigger is real nice, and mild recoil. Anyone have any thoughts on the Armalite?

                                              • #101872
                                                Max
                                                Keymaster

                                                  I have put 160 rounds of Talon remanufactured 147gr ball through my SR 7.62. In the first 80 rounds I had 3 short stroke malfunctions. I opened the gas system up to 3 and not a beat missed since. It looks as if it wants to shoot close to a minute – I have a 4X ACOG on it now – not exactly MOA inducing for glass, and 147 gr ball from circa 1998 is probably on the shotgun side of accuracy testing.

                                                  All up with ACOG, sling, and full mag it tips the scales at 11.25 pounds.

                                                  It very handily solves the shortcomings of my beloved M1A – short enough barrel to maneuver the thing, pistol grip to ease carrying and maneuvering it, and you can mount whatever optic you want on it easily. I could get Fulton Armory or James River to re-barrel my M1A, and I have a shade-tree mechanic project to install a SAW grip on the stock, but the optic is a toughy – Ultimak or Fulton Armory are the only two options for rail space.

                                                  It is very nice to pull the BCG and wonder why I bothered because it is SO CLEAN!!!!

                                                  I need to wring it out with appropriate glass and ammo, and then also take it to a training class to make sure it stands up to use, but so far, it seems like a home run to me.

                                                  USMA84DAB

                                                • #101873
                                                  Max
                                                  Keymaster

                                                    These Ar-10 platforms seem to be trying to fill a void that really doesn’t exist. “Semi Auto Battle Rifle”…..I’ll take a much lighter AR-15 and more ammo thanks. Way to many people wanting to include rifles into the category of “Battle Rifle” that have never seen battle!
                                                    Ruger makes some very good firearms. Take that puppy out into the dirt and crawl around with it for a week, and put that on Youtube then maybe a discussion about Battle Rifle capable could be had.

                                                  • #101874
                                                    USMC0331
                                                    Participant

                                                      These Ar-10 platforms seem to be trying to fill a void that really doesn’t exist.

                                                      There is a place for the AR-10 and it’s in the hands of a true rifle smith. Standardization really is not an issue for this gun as long as it’s reliable as it’s a precision tool that is going to need custom loaded ammo to get that 1/4-1/2 MOA out of the gun and 90% of that is coming from a dedicated shooter that knows his dope.

                                                      Fast follow up mikes are not the answer at range and a bolt gun is better served in the place of the AR10 especially considering the weight involved with packing them into position.

                                                      They do give the shooter one rifle instead of two while moving into position, but SHTF I’d rather have a good 556 AR that I know my dope on out to 600 yards, and breakout the bolt gun (go 300WIN) when I need to go farther. If you got to go farther than 600, then why not reach out to 1300 with plenty of energy left? .308 doesn’t get there.

                                                      By the time you put good glass on that AR10 (S&B, USO, Premier, etc.) and an offset optic for CGB, it’s a jack of all trades that weighs more than it’s worth to carry.

                                                      Packing a loadout with 556 is heavy enough, I can’t imagine the same battle load in .308 and that means you will compromise and carry less ammo. Not a good thing.

                                                      I had a sweet GAP AR10 that was true 1/4MOA but traded it for a GAP bolt gun and never missed it. They have no soul like a true custom Rem700 does. YMMV JM2CENTS

                                                    • #101875
                                                      Corvette
                                                      Participant

                                                        Strat: You make great points.
                                                        I myself Dont own a AR10 yet for all the reasons you outlined.
                                                        And I did just make myslef a DMR and stayed at 5.56.

                                                        But….. I believe there is a lot of potential in a weapon like a SR762 and frankly it fascinates me.
                                                        As it does may others.

                                                        Incidentally the AKM weighs nearly 8 lbs…about the same as a SIG 716.
                                                        And the much loved and extensively used by dozens of militries the G3 weighs in at 9 lbs (G3A3) t0 10 lbs (G3A4)..
                                                        And the SR762 is almost certainly a better rifle than the G3/HK91..

                                                        I agree that is too much and going lighter is better but I wanted to throw that out there as food for thought.

                                                        As for “Battle Rifle” the definition of battle rifle is the same as “assualt rifle” except its chambered in medium power cartridge.

                                                        (None of these rifles are tree assault or battele rifles due to the lack of selective fire but lets not open that can of worms.)

                                                        I dont think there is anything wrong for us to admire a fine rifle like this and discuss it’s applications is there?

                                                      • #101876
                                                        Max
                                                        Keymaster

                                                          As I mentioned before Ruger makes very nice firearms, but if the intent is to take a rifle into combat this system is very unproven was my point. I personally love the design and function, but with modern day ballistics and loads 5.56 is a better option for patrolling. I personally hand load 75gr BTHP’s to 5.56 specs(not 223 nonsense) and 600 yards is not an issue in my SPR.
                                                          The recoil of these AR-10’s is not harsh but compared to my Tavor with a brake its not even close how many more and accurate follow up shots I can make at even 100 yds. Let’s be honest and say not every shot we take hits the X, and follow up shots are very important to consider when using any weapon system.
                                                          Function and design aside a healthy conversation about humping that thing, and then engaging targets would be worth while IMHO.

                                                        • #101877
                                                          Max
                                                          Keymaster

                                                            Before everyone dismisses the SR 7.62 for whatever reason is their favorite (it’s too heavy, the ammo is too heavy, I can shhot just as far/good with my memorized dope out to 600 yards, etc., etc., etc.) – remember that you will not have Abrams, M203s, mortars, arty, grenades, M-3s, LAWs, M240s, M249s. It is just what you and/or your team has in their hands. Might it not be a good capability to shoot through the wall/tree/car the bad guy is behind? I am surprised to hear from USMC 0331 fawning all over the 5.56. I have a personal Leatherneck friend who detests the 5.56 having watched Iraqis with 13 holes in them show up at the hospital emergency room still consuming oxygen. I also am friends with a Brit who tromped across the Falklands – ALL of the SBS lads ditched their 5.56 M-16s and took up FALs. I don’t want to get shot with either – however, the 7.62 penetrates better because it is bigger. Maybe one should examine this idea since the bad guys will have grenades, choppers, mortars, etc.?

                                                            I agree with the “drag it through the mud” need for proof/battleworthiness. Holey Schnikes Mr. Turd in the swimming pool – give the SR 7.62 a chance! Ever heard of guarded optimism? I still have my M1A in case the 7.62 does have teething problems. People like you troll the thread and shut down discussion/conversation.

                                                            I want to hear from someone that takes it to a course at Thunder Ranch, or Max’s playground, or a Suarez course too – they are too new for that still – give them a chance!

                                                            USMA84DAB

                                                          • #101878
                                                            USMC0331
                                                            Participant

                                                              I am surprised to hear from USMC 0331 fawning all over the 5.56. I have a personal Leatherneck friend who detests the 5.56 having watched Iraqis with 13 holes in them show up at the hospital emergency room still consuming oxygen.

                                                              For me it comes down this… I can carry 2x the amount of 556 and have a lighter weapon that is the most prolific in the USA. For an all around SHTF caliber/gun I can’t see a better option than the 556/AR15 or the Glock 17/22 for that matter.

                                                              As for the 13 hits… Shot placement is the only guarantee.

                                                            • #101879
                                                              Corvette
                                                              Participant

                                                                It’s all about team.
                                                                No body here advocates for a single guy to pick this over a 5.56mm rifle.

                                                                But in a fire team or larger if one guy has a greater engagement envelope than the rest of his team this has been shown to add value.

                                                                The germans in WW2 added to the STGW 44 squads a couple 98ks for that reason.
                                                                The russians added a SVD to the AKM armed platoon
                                                                And of course we (re) introduced some extra longer ranged rifles in afghanistan.

                                                                This was not really intended to devolve into a caliber debate but I guess it cant be avoided at times :D

                                                              • #101880
                                                                Max
                                                                Keymaster

                                                                  There are some good points on both sides here. I will offer my opinion.

                                                                  In the end it really doesn’t matter – at least not enough to spend time hotly debating. Guns are tools. Some people like one kind and some like another. There are a lot of great choices, and beyond that, even more things that are not great choices but will probably work just fine. Use a little common sense, but pick what you want and use what makes you happy. Most bad guys won’t know what make, model, or caliber you are shooting them with.

                                                                  With that in mind, here is how the sequence of importance breaks down:
                                                                  Think of it as a series of tests. You have to pass each test to move on to the next test. If you don’t pass a test, you are out of the game and you cannot move on to the next test.

                                                                  Test #1: “Will I kill someone?” It really doesn’t matter if you are equipped and able, if you are not willing. Don’t lie to yourself. Most people cannot proceed past this. If the answer is “yes”, proceed to the next test.

                                                                  Test #2: “Is this the right time to kill?” This is a hard one. This is where setting a personal “red line” combines with training and experience. Killing at the wrong time is no good and not killing at the right time is even worse. While most people never make it to this “test”, the ones that do may find that this is the hardest to get right. If you do get it right, then proceed on to the next “test”.

                                                                  Test #3: “Do I have the skill required to kill in this situation?” For the sake of simplicity, lets narrow the example to firearms. In other words, can I hit what I want to with speed and precision and use tactics appropriate for the situation? Can I do that on demand and under pressure? Can I deliver the basics mistake free under pressure? Again, don’t lie to yourself here – most people do. There is a reason top organizations have mandatory performance standards that personnel are required to maintain. It is because they have found that maintaining that standard will increase the likelihood of personnel bringing the skill needed to win the fight. They have also found that if a person cannot meet that basic performance standard, they are most likely deluding themselves by overestimating their capability.

                                                                  Now, at this point, if you have passed test #1, #2, and #3 it is time to talk about the merits of vertical fore grips and fight about what caliber makes you a better ass-kicking killer or barrel chested freedom fighter.

                                                                  You can see that there are a lot of tests you have to pass before weapon selection starts to matter. I am not saying it isn’t important, I’m just saying in the grand scheme, it is a small thing. However, it is on that small thing that many people spend almost all of their time.

                                                                • #101881
                                                                  USMC0331
                                                                  Participant

                                                                    @mvfmoderator
                                                                    If you need a sniper/overwatch in a team then a bolt gun with enough ammo for the mission on top of the patrol rifle makes more sense than having a heavyweight as your primary.

                                                                    If the mission drives the gear, what mission requires a team member to hump an AR10 or any other semi-auto .30cal to accomplish it? Is it worth trading commonality of arms/ammo for a team member to do so?

                                                                    If we were talking a belt-fed, there would be no argument, but that is another animal and does make a significant difference on a battle field.

                                                                    It’s got nothing to do with caliber for me, it’s about practicality and mission specific gear. If you are going past 500/600 then get the most bang for your buck and go 300WIN or larger.

                                                                    NOTE: I don’t see a resistance movement in the USA as ever being a reality and base my answers and scenarios on SHTF scenarios, namely a small fire-team for protection of several families on one location.

                                                                    Perhaps you can elaborate on the scenario you see it being used in?

                                                                    @Danie Theron
                                                                    Good points. I find a lot of arguments about gear and skill are best put to rest on a clock and during a test. One thing I know for sure is that if you are not out there doing it weekly or at least monthly, and doing it in full kit… You are kidding yourself.

                                                                  • #101882
                                                                    Baldrick
                                                                    Participant

                                                                      My personal thought development over the last year regarding this topic (and this is a needed and godo discussion to have).

                                                                      I had an AR, setup to be as light as possible, setup for me to shoot. I then got into precision shooting a little bit, and built a nice Remington 700 in 308, developed a handload, added a custom barrel, had it bedded, had a trigger guard to take AICS mags, etc. I had it decked out with everything you need to make consistent repeatble hits at 7-800 yds (and shooting at that range is some of the most fun I’ve ever had with my pants on).

                                                                      I hike/backpack fairly regularly as well. I schlepped this rifle, weighing in at almost 15 lbs with that 24 inch bull barrel, and hated every minute of it. AICS mags are also very heavy due to durability. Maybe I’m just a pussy, but that’s too much, and it was all at the front end of the rifle, which meant it didn’t sling well. If you gave me 20 seconds to get setup I could probably make a 600 yd hit depending on how out of breath I was AND if I had a good supported position, but that was about all it was good for. The weight dispersion and my choice of optics made the rifle almost no good for offhand shots inside 200 yds, or really offhand shots at any distance. But that’s why I had an AR.

                                                                      Then I went to Max’s class. I had done drills like that before, but putting the pieces together from that along with the SUT emphasis on sustainability and rucking from the blog made me reconsider. I don’t care to have an extra 12-15 lb rifle on my back for “just in case”. I realized if my team came under contact and I was the “sniper” (used loosely) I would be almost zero good at returning fire, and fighting through or breaking contact with that rifle. Granted, I wouldn’t want to have someone shooting at me 800 yds away with my Remington 700, but in a dynamic environment with no arty, no air, and no reinforcments, just potentially my family or a few friends, I don’t want to be holding a long and unwieldy bolt gun, no matter how good it is at 1000 yds. If we are operating in vehicles that’s a different story because I don’t have to carry it. And I could use it for a fixed emplacement with other people to support me. But I wouldn’t take it on a patrol.

                                                                      So I sold it, and built an 18 inch medium weight barrel AR after the CRCD. I can run and gun with it, and it has a 2.5-10x scope on there that has a daytime visible reticle and BUIS. I can make a 600 yd shot with that rifle, but if I came under contact at 50 yds and had to fight through or break contact I wouldn’t really be impeded. That has become the filter through which I do rifles now. Yes I want a gun that can do whatever (long range, DMR, CQB, etc) and I can tailor a gun to be useful for that, but it has to be able to play ball in a contact situation. So my “sniper rifle/long range precision rig” now is an AR, lightweight enough for rocking and rolling, but with an optic and barrel that maximizes the range of the platform. I handload 77 gr SMKs that are excellent rounds. One more reason I did another AR is I am teaching my wife some of this stuff and I want her to on the same page with me. She needed an AR she could use well.

                                                                      This is not a caliber issue that I’m speaking to, but rather having a basic requirement of POU for a weapon, that you can then add other purposes onto the POU. Again, this is my frame of mind currently. So if I could get a nice 16 inch 308 AR, like a LaRue, or better yet something else like a SCAR that you can still run and gun with but also reach out with, then I would run one of those in a second (I just can’t cough up the money now to outfit one and feed it). Once you get up past that 10 lb unloaded area it starts to be an issue for me. A REPR, or SASS type setup is a fat whore compared to some of the trimmer options like a Larue or SCAR. YMMV. I’m not trying to flame anyone here, just sharing how my thinking has evolved on the issue.

                                                                      Cheers all and keep up discussion!

                                                                      Baldrick

                                                                    • #101883
                                                                      Baldrick
                                                                      Participant

                                                                        Adding to that, to put brass tacks on a 556 or 308 option, For an AR a Mk12 or “recce” configuration, with a 14.5, 16 or 18 inch barrel using good ammo with a low powered variable optic (1-4, 1-6, 3-9, 2-10), or a SIG 516, Larue OBR type, SCAR 17, lightweight FAL variant etc with a similar optic is great. When you get into the 2 lb adjustable sniper stocks, the long heavy rails, and the thick and heavy barrels any platform, 223 ARs included, IMO, starts to lose it react to contact capability. On a team, I would say one guy in 8 has one. or if you don’t have eight, then still just one guy. YMMV. I run regular ammo through my 18 inch rifle, and have a few 20 rd mags of my handloads in a special place on my rig so that I I have opportunity to take a long shot, I can load it with my good ammo and make a first round hit.

                                                                      • #101884
                                                                        Max
                                                                        Keymaster

                                                                          Some discussion above on caliber, this I believe supports my choice of .308.

                                                                          http://www.handguncombatives.com/resources/LE_WB_briefing_6_13.pdf

                                                                          Comments?

                                                                        • #101885
                                                                          DiznNC
                                                                          Participant

                                                                            Danie brings up some good points here. We’re talking about fighting vs shooting. Caliber n shit don’t matter if you’re not up to it.

                                                                            If you really want to back out the focus onto the larger issue of what really matters in an unconventional warfare arena, it could be argued that the weapons/caliber used, and even the marksmanship (or lack there-of) are largely irrelevant at the strategic level. Look at all the insurgencies where the “G’s” hardly won a battle, but won the war because of “world opinion” and other forces at work. I used to laugh my ass off at the coverage of the Arab uprisings in the various countries around the globe. Jump up, fire off the AK or RPG and duck back. Repeat until news cameras get a good shot of you. That news footage is more important than anything our erstwhile freedom fighter did all day. It showed for all the world to see that the current regime is full of shit in denying there is any serious problem.

                                                                            So oftentimes type and caliber of weapon (not to mention BRM) is not really important in the scheme of things. That being said, I think we can all agree that our standards are a bit higher than the world average. Not to be a condescending prick, but we take more pride in our rifle marksmanship, and it shows.

                                                                            But back to the OP, while I agree it’s a good idea to have some DMR in the mix, and even 7.62 to spice things up, I also think that for the general rank and file, having a battle-proven 5.56 rifle, in the same pattern as the opfor makes the most sense. This is a central tenant in unconventional warfare. If we aren’t going to have any outside sources supplying us with arms, then we need what’s available, and sustainable. And that means what the opfor has.

                                                                          • #101886
                                                                            Corvette
                                                                            Participant

                                                                              Some discussion above on caliber, this I believe supports my choice of .308.

                                                                              http://www.handguncombatives.com/resources/LE_WB_briefing_6_13.pdf

                                                                              Comments?

                                                                              Read the entire paper. A loty of information.

                                                                              Interesting points about incapacitating issues with smaller Ammo.
                                                                              Also what really stuck in my mind were the problems with re-chambered ammo.

                                                                              It may take a re-read to fully digest implications.

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