I have your Solution for Fixing Government

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    • #126536
      Max
      Keymaster

        I am often stewing on this one. What is the best form of government? It has been proved that Democracy cannot work with a dumb and entitled public. But what system would work?

        As I pondered this it was clear to me that what we really want in place is a benevolent lawgiver (‘king’) supported by a council of wise men. Of course, hereditary monarchy does not mean you will get that, and unless supported by strong laws, does not protect individual liberty. The US Presidential system is an attempt to put that in place.

        But we know that equality before the law DOES NOT equal equality of men. We also know that those on entitlement will vote to take the money from the treasury, which in fact means plundering taxpayers. In previous times, this was countered by having qualifications for voting. Such as being male, owning property etc. Much as I would love to have a basic IQ test, I think that is impractical, and educational level nowadays is no indicator.

        So I propose a simple practical test. If you are receiving entitlement, you do not get to vote. To vote, you also have to be paying personal / business taxes. Now, entitlement is actually a very large thing, and I mean to say if you are receiving ANY sort of entitlement, you don’t get to vote. I would go so far to say that includes social security. Harsh, but anyone voting is not receiving entitlement payments.

        We can argue about exactly where the entitlement stops and starts. Military veteran pensions etc? To me, it is just an argument that needs to be fixed, with the aim of ensuring that those getting the money from taxpayers are not motivated to only vote themselves more.

        This would immediately remove the feckless and stupid from the voting rolls. It would have the impact of only taxpayers / property owners voting, which should automatically reduce redistribution payments and the socialism we are currently living with.

        I thus say that Democracy is the best of the worse forms of government, it is simply the details of WHO is allowed to vote that need to be fixed. Once that is fixed, we have the opportunity of voting responsible lawmakers into office.

        Of course that is never going to happen. But if I am ever king for the day, I will make it happen before stepping down.

      • #126545
        Civilianresponder
        Participant

          So that would mean no politicians could vote since everyone of them is receiving entitlements of some sort. Getting rid of career politicians and bureaucrats would go a long ways towards making things better in my opinion.

        • #126554
          RobRoy
          Participant

            If you have mass franchise where near every pulse has a vote I would say a country about the size of Israel is about maximum size, after that the usual grifters become unaccountable.

            off topic; The Right could learn a lot from Israel and Zionism, but most of the right is either stuck in idolatry/theology or “Joos stolt my mojo” idiocy, therefor we cannot learn.

          • #126557
            GreenTip
            Participant

              When fools can vote we get what we have now. Total freak show. Not going to change.

            • #126562
              wheelsee
              Participant

                If you take it back to John Locke (17th C philosopher, of whom our founding fathers patterned many things), he proposed 4 criteria for voting. 1) Property owner (IOW, “skin in the game”). 2) Male, of age (generalization – men tend to think protective of tribe, women tend to think of those things within the tribe). 3) educated, read/write (if you can’t read/write, you won’t know what the ballot says nor the issues at hand). And I can never remember the 4th…..

                Voting – National (any citizen, anywhere, will require national voter ID, we already have in the form of Social Security). State – must be a tax-paying resident for 3 years before voting. Local – must be a tax-paying citizen for 5 years before voting. These simple concepts slows the shift in political base due to influx of new residents – think of those Californians moving to Texas.

                Voting – If you are a governmental employee (federal, state, or local – and yes, this includes military, police, fire/EMS, etc), you have no vote. This is a conflict-of-interest as you can vote yourselves pay raises and largesse from the public treasury.

                Voting – At the end of each ballot, shall be a simple question of our Republic, i.e how many branches of government, etc. If the answer is wrong, the ballot is immediately nullified.

                Voter fraud – all cases prosecuted. If guilty, revocation of voter rights for life. If vote again, upon conviction – death penalty or revocation of ALL citizen rights, i.e persona non gratis.

                Taxes (federal) – Flat tax (say 10% for those under $1M, 15% for those over $1M) on ALL income. No deductions. EVERYBODY pays. For budgeting purposes, Congress will be limited to spending only what was brought in by taxes last year (always working 1 year behind).

                Government corruption – ALL cases prosecuted. Upon conviction, lifetime ban from ANY government work, including subcontracts. If 2nd case, upon conviction – death penalty or revocation of ALL citizen rights, i.e persona non gratis.

                Crimes against people (murder, rape, aggravated crimes) – upon conviction, death penalty carried out within 30 days (if prosecutorial misconduct found, same sentence to the prosecutor). I’m still thinking this one through.

                Crimes against property (arson, burglary, vandalism) – Upon conviction, work party for the state or local government, payable minimum wage until debt paid off.

                Statutory laws – pared back. Still thinking this one through.

                DWI/Drug possession – drink, drive, do meth, don’t really care – its your life. BUT – drink/drive/kill someone? Execution within 30 days. Put someone in an ICU?? Execution within 30 days. Overdose?? No EMS. Blow your heart on cocaine? No further care.

                Social Security – declare DRT (dead right there). I’m responsible for my own future, my own savings. The Ponzi scheme stops now.

                Dept of Education – GONE! We went to the moon without it and have gotten dumber since it came about.

                Dept of Energy – GONE!!

                Dept of State – recall ALL ambassadors. Realign, the emphasis is on the US.

                Foreign Aid – if the recipient country is not in line with US interests, GONE!

                for starters…….

              • #126569
                dave37
                Participant

                  This would improve things, but so would damn near anything that restricted voting rights. The Starship Troopers model would work too. Basically, when you are at the bottom of a hole, any direction is up.

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                  • #126629
                    AntMan
                    Participant

                      Well first we need to stop the digging…

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                  • #126595
                    DiznNC
                    Participant

                      Well, you know, the founding fathers had no idea that public morals, and ethics would drop to such low levels. In their minds, it was a given that you would have a religious, morally responsible group of countrymen willing to lend a hand in running the government, and the people would be, by and large, responsible adults. How far we have fallen. De Tocqueville nailed it two hundred years ago when he wondered what would happen when the people figured out they could vote themselves whatever they wanted. And here we are.

                      I have always been partial to Heinlein, and his Starship Troopers (book, never movie) model of government.

                      I think a benevolent king model makes as much sense as anything else, human nature factored in. The kind of democracy we have only works if you have a moral, religious background of ethical behavior, backed up by a strong cultural heritage; if you remove all this, and insist on ridiculous extremes of equality and freedom, you have America, as presently constituted.

                    • #126623
                      wheelsee
                      Participant

                        OUR CONSTITUTION WAS MADE ONLY FOR A MORAL AND RELIGIOUS PEOPLE.

                        -President John Adams to the Officers of the First Brigade of the Third Division of the Militia of Massachusetts, 1798.1

                      • #126636
                        rampantraptor
                        Participant

                          The issue isn’t universal suffrage, the issue is that our democracy is so nationalized and indirect that one group of people making a bad decision in one area can have negative repercussions for the entire citizenry. The solution is to reduce the amount of harm government itself can inflict to as limited a population as possible.

                          Direct democracy is the most representative form of government, every abstraction away from that through elected representatives makes it inherently less and less representative and democratic. It’s impossible for a single legislator representing a million citizens to actually represent the interests of all the demographics in his district. State and federal governments have so much power over local governments that local governments are largely irrelevant in people’s lives, when the opposite should be true. As it stands now most citizen’s interaction with local government involves either police or applying for licenses and permits, and even the latter has often become a state-level matter. When democracy and decision-making were more direct, the federal government’s nature as a republic wasn’t such a divisive issue, as power centralized to the state and federal level populist calls for federal and state offices to become more “democratic” in nature increased.

                          Gut the federal government for most things beyond foreign affairs and defense. Most states make enough they can run their own welfare programs, highways, etc., they can take much of the workload the federal government itself now carries, entire countries the size of our states do so already.

                          Empower the communities, make town assemblies worth something again, and you’ll see a lot more interest in political participation and a loss of influence from elected elites and parties. At the maximum decisions such as tax rates, gun laws, etc. should be on a county level. Urban and rural values are always going to differ so localizing such decisions will prevent these zero-sum elections for state and federal office. Localizing politics reduces the negative effects bad decisions from one locality affecting others, and also keeps the scale of any ill-designed laws or social programs small enough that they can’t become “too big to fail”.

                          Actually implementing this, either in peacetime or in the context of a civil conflict, would require buy-in from the urban left as well, though the only faction among them that would likely agree to this would be the anarchists (I’m literally describing a confederal Rojava-style model, if you haven’t noticed), the state socialists still hope for a maximalist federal nanny state. As urban and rural values differ, the selling point to any sympathetic leftists would be that not only would we be unaffected by decisions they make that we find unappealing, they themselves would be insulated from those decisions we make that they find equally unappealing. That’s why I so often advocate a pragmatic “bottom-unity” approach when dealing with the social anarchists, no point in fighting over left-wing urban areas libertarian and conservative folks have no chance at taking anyway, better to help empower those whose platform would also mitigate the harm done to us.

                          • #126660
                            Max
                            Keymaster

                              Blah. You just took a very simple concept and garbed it in gobledegook as usual.

                              My comment to you is that you can’t seem to think outside of the box of current times. A box you have also created for yourself by obscure political reading. You simply overcomplicate everthing.

                              Clearly, a concept such as what I described, and embellished very well by Wheelsee, is not being implemented right now. It is simply political philosophy at this point. And who said anything about getting buy-in from the Left? LOL, clearly what I have suggested must be done against the objections of the Left!

                              However, if you think through the implications of what I have described, you have the solution for the ills of our Republic. If suffrage was restricted as I have described, the situation would fix itself. It doesn’t have to be overcomplicated beyond that point.

                              I would absolutely counter you and posit that the issue is indeed universal suffrage. People are not equal, and dimwits should not be voting. That is how to fix democracy.

                              • This reply was modified 1 week, 4 days ago by  Max.
                          • #126670
                            hellokitty
                            Participant

                              DWI/Drug possession – drink, drive, do meth, don’t really care – its your life. BUT – drink/drive/kill someone? Execution within 30 days. Put someone in an ICU?? Execution within 30 days. Overdose?? No EMS. Blow your heart on cocaine? No further care.

                              No more Narcan. Better yet suspend all EMS services for 6 months. That will cull the herd and improve the gene pool.

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                              • #126713
                                Max
                                Keymaster

                                  Need to halt on the hate or idiots, which may be justified, but isn’t really part of the philosophical discussion.

                                  I’m just suggesting we improve democracy by fixing who votes. Downstream, that will fix most of this stupidity anyway, when entitlements are inevitably cut back by tax paying voters.

                              • #126672
                                trailman
                                Participant

                                  However, if you think through the implications of what I have described, you have the solution for the ills of our Republic. If suffrage was restricted as I have described, the situation would fix itself. It doesn’t have to be overcomplicated beyond that point.

                                  I would absolutely counter you and posit that the issue is indeed universal suffrage. People are not equal, and dimwits should not be voting. That is how to fix democracy.

                                  Not to get into the weeds but who gets to decide who the dimwits are? Historically that was decided by who had more firepower. A lot of wheelsee’s post is great stuff but it still concentrates too much power into too few individuals, there have been very few benevolent kings in history. He also left out measures to make the press accountable. That would go a long way.

                                  We didn’t get here overnight and we won’t get out by morning. What it really will take short of CWIII is people who believe in rightful liberty to step up and get involved. It ain’t easy. Hell right now I’d settle for a convention of the States and a repeal of the 17th Amendment. That would go a long way towards unscrewing the federal government.

                                  Funny, I just had a long talk about the school system with my 15Yo and we covered a lot of this.

                                  • #126712
                                    Max
                                    Keymaster

                                      This is a philosophical discussion. You have to get our of your mental box. I don’t expect the Congress to implement this tomorrow!

                                      There is no discussion of firepower? Simply who gets to vote: nobody on entitlement. It’s pretty simple really.

                                  • #126714
                                    Sitting Duck
                                    Participant

                                      In the ’30’s a guy sold or gave away 1 square foot properties in upstate NY. If owning land became a requirement someone either politically or just enterprising will do the same to satisfy the requirement.

                                      The rule of law is broken. The Wall Street journal estimated that the average person committed three felonies a day.

                                      • #126720
                                        Max
                                        Keymaster

                                          I believe I said not receiving entitlement and paying taxes. We should perhaps stop looking for the stupid and explore the idea.

                                          This is a philosophical idea that clearly will not be inplemented in the current paradigm.

                                          The idea is: what is the best / most effective form of government? Democracy is preferable to any other form of rule. But democracy does not work when everyone votes. Everyone did not used to vote. The way to fix it is to take the vote away from those who receive entitlements and those who do not pay taxes. That will fix democracy.

                                          On another matter, with Wheelsee’s comment about those who are paid by the government not getting a vote, I have a recollection that the UK military were always encouraged to not vote, to be apolitical, due to the role of the military in a democracy. Separation etc. It was a cuktural thing.

                                          On the rest of what he stated, that is personal opinion, and not really related to the theory on how to fix the system of democracy. It could be voted on in the new system. Or, as per Enlightenment Philosophy, the ‘lawgiver’ who is appointed after the collapse can implement laws, which will then continue under the new, fixed, system of democracy.

                                          Guys, think outside the box and not what is happening outside your front door right now.

                                      • #126721
                                        veritas556
                                        Participant

                                          Andrew Brietbart said, “Politics is downstream of culture.” I agree and it’s safe to say both are terribly ill.

                                          In large, modern societies such as ours, culture is a byproduct of our institutions – family, tradition, church, schools, media, etc. Not surprisingly, we live in a world of broken families, mocked tradition, disgraced churches, failing schools, dishonest media and so on.

                                          Lots of interesting ideas and formulas mentioned in this thread but let’s be real… there can be no cultural course correction driven by the hand of démocratie politique. One side will inevitably impose its will on the other by force as has been the case throughout human history.

                                          Clausewitz and many men before him have understood this: “war is a mere continuation of politics by other means.” Even the average voter (see polls) sees this eventuality on the horizon. Fait accompli.

                                          None of us can possibly fathom how this will all unravel or what our individual role will play. We should only hope good, moral men prevail.

                                          ———————————-
                                          ADDENDUM (before the flaming :)… Yes, I understand “hope” is not a plan. And “not planning is planning to fail”. I get all that. This is not meant to be defeatist or that we’re all just tumbleweeds in the wind. Yet absent any real organization from the liberty camp (wait, liberty, what’s that?) I’d prefer not to fantasize about what could be.

                                          • This reply was modified 1 week, 4 days ago by  veritas556.
                                          • #126726
                                            Max
                                            Keymaster

                                              You may not be wrong about your prediction. But you still miss the point. This post was about forms of government and what is best. Monarchy? Council? Or Democracy? My point is that Democracy is best for individual liberty, but it must be fixed, hence my plan.

                                              Does anyone have anything constructive to say about that, or are we still stuck in the box of our current predicament?

                                              Also, if one side is going to impose something on the other, we have long talked about not knowing what will come out of collapse / reset, and thus not wanting to wish for it. What if there were a collapse and a war, and there was an opportunity to start a new form of government. What would it be? Realistically?

                                          • #126728
                                            DiznNC
                                            Participant

                                              If you combine the concepts of might makes right with restricted voting rights, you come very close to Heinlein’s model. The Veterans, who have shown courage and loyalty to country, get to chose who gets to vote, but they stay out of it, until (if ever) they retire. So anyone on the government dime, whatsoever, does not get a vote; and only those who have demonstrated a level of give-a-shit get to make/enforce that decision.

                                              That’s probably as close to it as you’re gonna get.

                                              We have tried the “honor system” as it were, and found that by corrupting the morals of the country, this form of government can be completely negated.

                                              I say the only true form of government that will work is by the blood of those who are willing to put their ass on the line for it. And to Max’s point, if you take everyone on the government dole, OFF the voting roles, you might see a return to something resembling common sense. I would posit that half of this country is on the some kind of government dole. And I think we all know which half. Take them out of the equation and see what happens. But yeah, ain’t gonna happen without a revolution.

                                            • #126729
                                              RobRoy
                                              Participant

                                                Cart before the horse there Max, till we men get a firm hold on our culture and basically disenfranchise the “Mean Girls” culture that has basically turned America into a clown sorority feud God himself would wash his hands of this sh*t show.

                                                Yes we men can talk tough on the net but our womenfolk watch the news and those scum bags run the usual “Poor Children” stories then pass them off as popular and here we are today friggin purse holders.

                                              • #126743
                                                JohnnyMac
                                                Participant

                                                  I definitely think there is merit to making voting a privilege, not a right. Max, your idea of working it out based on tax payers who don’t receive government funds isn’t bad at all.

                                                  No matter how you split it up, there is a danger of developing a strong ruling class. One could argue we already have one, but that’s mostly based on financial power coupled with social contacts, IE status can change pretty easily. The difference in the proposed would mean it’s literally institutionalized and much harder to change status. A way around this might be: people who receive government funds are either not taxed or given substantial tax reduction (based on what they receive). Or more generally, maybe there is a rule that no laws can be implemented that only apply to non-voters

                                                  Something more important to think about in my opinion is the growth of law/rules/regulations. Our country has become bloated with it. As part of this new government, I think there would need to be a clean slate of laws, and measures in place to make it WAY harder to pass laws (maybe a popular vote fast track? For those who can vote). Maybe it goes from a 2/3 majority to 3/4th’s? This would include suspending the ability of agencies, departments, etc to create regulations by fiat.

                                                  • This reply was modified 1 week, 4 days ago by  JohnnyMac.
                                                  • This reply was modified 1 week, 4 days ago by  JohnnyMac.
                                                • #126746
                                                  Roadkill
                                                  Participant

                                                    Max what you say sounds more like a republic than democracy. The old saying of democracy being five wolves and a sheep voting on what’s for dinner rings true. Our founders said democracy is the vilest form of government.
                                                    Democracy only protects the majority, whereas a republic, which relies on its founding documents is supposed to protect the individual.
                                                    We lost our republic incrementally, but the biggest change came after Lincoln’s war. We basically lost the republic.
                                                    The constitution is what limits power in a republic. When we lost the teeth of the constitution in 1865 we’ve been going downhill ever since.
                                                    The million dollar question; how to regain our republic. I believe it has to be a grassroots effort. It’s a bottom up not a top down situation.
                                                    Can it be done? The indoctrination of our youth through public means has really hampered the ability to do so.
                                                    Work at your local levels and never give up.

                                                    • #126749
                                                      Max
                                                      Keymaster

                                                        Democracy and Republic are not mutually exclusive. Democracy is simply the method of electing representatives. This democracy is used in the Republic to elect representatives who are supposed to be there to carry out the will of the people. Yes, protected by the law, which is the Constitution.

                                                        Becasue we have gone for universal suffrage, we now have a warped form of democracy which is in the process of losing the Republic. When the country was founded, suffrage was restricted.

                                                        What I am proposing is that we restrict suffrage by some basic measures that prevent those who are only voting themselves entitlements, from having a vote in governance. They will get what the non-entitlement tax paying public wants to give them.

                                                        Whether that system protects the individual or not is up to the law, which is of course voted upon by the restricted suffrage. I started this thread as a discussion of the ideal form of government, It has long perplexed me that democracy appears to not work, but there is nothing to replace it with unless you want definite tyranny. You rely on the benevolence of the dictator, and even if you get a good one, what comes next. But this appears to be the solution to the perplexing issues of democracy.

                                                        Of course commenters in this thread cannot resist putting this theoretical into the context of out current situation. Well, of course no one is going to allow my proposition to happen in current times and over the current system. Thus, placed in the context of our current situation, this would only happen after the war – thus, Libertists must win, and sit down to the Constitutional Convention just as per 1781, write a new updated Constitution, and fix the democratic system used to elect representatives.

                                                        Now, we could get sci-fi, and say that democracy is used to elect representatives of the will of the people, and is there another way to get those politicians in place to run the country for us? What about a lottery, or an algorithm? This some way of electing people to government without even voting? How that would reflect the will of the people I do not know. A sort of jury service writ large!

                                                    • #126747
                                                      Roadkill
                                                      Participant

                                                        On Facebook I do a quote of the day. Here is today’s. This is what everyone is thinking about.

                                                        Roy’s Quote of the Day: November 7, 2019

                                                        Today 2 for the price of 1.

                                                        A great civilization is not conquered from without, until it has destroyed itself from within. The essential causes of Rome’s decline lay in her people, her morals, her class struggle, her failing trade, her bureaucratic despotism, her stifling taxes, her consuming wars.

                                                        Will Durant

                                                        History is always repeating itself, but each time the price goes up.

                                                        Will Durant

                                                        Died this day 1981.

                                                      • #126767
                                                        DiznNC
                                                        Participant

                                                          To the OP, I agree with Max on a restriction of suffrage; my mechanism to do this is with public service, after which you get the privilege of voting.

                                                          The perfect prize (freedom) in exchange for the perfect cost (your life). In other words, a free man must be willing to fight to death for his freedom, at the drop of the hat, or else it’s all bullshit, IMHO.

                                                          Our government has just become a mechanism for re-distributing the wealth. Indeed, the solution is to take the vote away from those, that are merely voting to take money from someone else, and give it to themselves.

                                                          The solution to that is nothing short of armed insurrection, IMHO, which I know this website is NOT recommending, merely “here is what needs fixing”. The catch is how do we get “from here, to there”.

                                                          • This reply was modified 1 week, 4 days ago by  DiznNC.
                                                        • #126822
                                                          rampantraptor
                                                          Participant

                                                            Historically restricting suffrage has been a means to ostracize those the ruling class have considered undesirable – the poor, black folks, etc. so I am extremely skeptical of proposals to restrict voting rights. It’s very easy for liberals to claim this is really a tool to disenfranchise minority voters. Broke millenials like me who have little hope of owning their own home or getting off Obamacare aren’t going to get excited and join your movement to eliminate their right to vote.

                                                            I have Obamacare because it was either that or go without insurance and possibly go deaf in my left ear from an infection, and my job wanted half of every paycheck (I was making $560-$600 every two weeks) for me to have health coverage. I still pay personal taxes, if I can’t vote because I have Obamacare why should I pay taxes to your government? Taxation without representation much?

                                                            You will not get support from those who would become disenfranchised by this, especially without a developed platform to empower those who are taking entitlements to get off of them. Many of the issues (health care, education, etc.) that drive people to take entitlements are structural in nature, I’m sure you’re smart enough to understand that statist elites have good motivation to force We The People into federal dependency to promote obedience to Leviathan. Targeting poor people who take entitlements seems like it’s going after the wrong people, this does nothing to attack the real power elites.

                                                            Of course dimwits shouldn’t vote, but who the dimwits are can be easily twisted against us. Liberals would consider any of us who are working-class to be dimwits not to support the rich paying for our health care and college tuition, by their standards we’re going against our own individual economic interests because we’re attached to guns and religion. You ever see how brightly Trump supporters are portrayed on SNL?

                                                            From where I’m standing this sounds less revolutionary and more like an elitist counter-reaction, which is exactly what your opponents would frame it as if ever seriously pushed as policy. Between you and Wheelsee it sounds like you’re more concerned about punishing people than liberating them. In my defense I proposed far less than Wheelsee did, I simply expounded upon my points more.

                                                            I mention buy-in from the left because most of our population is in urban centers, and that trend is only accelerating under our current economic system – case in point the mess you guys are going to deal with in Virginia, simply because most of your population now lives in the urban and suburban centers of NoVA. Here in Baltimore I grew up in the social vacuum of white flight, now the flow is reversing and they’re literally cramming four storey condos in any vacant lot they can find, in back alleys even. I’ll spare the political theory lecture (I honestly read less than you presume) and state that you will only get halfway if you gain momentum in the countryside but remain unable to take the cities, whether the context is in a peaceful electoral movement or the boogaloo.

                                                            In summary, you propose limiting who can vote, I counter-proposed limiting the damage any group of voters can create to their own towns and cities, so only they and their immediate neighbors would be subject to the consequences of their bad voting decisions.

                                                            I’m not sure how any of this is me being stuck in a mental box, I’m viewing the viability of your proposals in the world we actually live in, is that what you mean? Again this whole debate is nothing personal, but on the points themselves.

                                                            Beyond that squabble, if I were to alter the actual elections themselves, implementing ranked-choice voting would send out a lifeline to third parties across the board and reduce the influence of extremist candidates. All those Republicans in Kentucky right now bitching about all the votes the Libertarian candidate pulled would have no reason to bitch if those voters could simply have added the Republican as their second choice. Probably the only good thing to happen last Tuesday is that NYC voted to implement it.

                                                            • #126824
                                                              Max
                                                              Keymaster

                                                                No vote for you Raptor!

                                                                It’s not my government, it’s a philosophical discussion. How to make democracy work.

                                                                Yes, we need to disenfranchise entitlement urban areas. These are the mooks who are voting for more of my tax payer money. Redistribution. Same with poor rural trash. Fuck ’em. My money they are stealing.

                                                                In reality, this is only gonna happen after a reset in this country. On the face of it is a philosophical conversation about democracy anywhere, but we can apply it here if we wish.

                                                                So someone needs to phone Russia and have a cyber hacker cancel EBT cards. That will get this shit started. After the war, we can bring in civil government after a constitutional convention. But only if we win.

                                                                Here’s something for you raptor: the biggest mistake the colonies ever made, carried into the nascent United States, was slavery. The country has never managed to get away from it, and it is still the main historical topic taught in schools, along with guilt. The inability to move past the legacy of slavery will ultimately lead to the end of the country. And unfortunately, it will probably look very much like a race war when it happens. When the entitlements stop, and the urban centers melt down and come boiling out into the suburbs. Aint gonna be pretty.

                                                                • This reply was modified 1 week, 4 days ago by  Max.
                                                            • #126847
                                                              rampantraptor
                                                              Participant

                                                                I don’t really buy into the race war rhetoric, maybe fifteen years ago I would have thought so but when you look at the political leaders of the right and the left they all have the same complexions as us. The left would surely try to weaponize racial anxiety and I’m doubtful some on the right wouldn’t as well, race would simply be one factor in the next civil war as slavery was one factor in the last, but not necessarily the primary driving factor. Class and region would mix in as well as it always does, not simply attacking all whites but “rednecks”, “I don’t hate all black people, only n****rs”, etc.

                                                                Honestly most black folks I’ve known are far less politically extreme than white liberals, after Trump got elected I sensed a general mood of “We’ll give him a chance,” not “Impeach the motherfucker!” There also weren’t really any targeted racial attacks during our riots in 2015 despite an entire childhood of warnings about race war from our parents who lived through the 1968 riots. Looking back into history the Black Panther Party itself started making coalitions with whites and Latinos towards the end of its existence. The most popular thinkers of the modern American left are also still mostly white. Therefore I expect political polarization to be a bigger motivating factor than race.

                                                                Generally people don’t embrace explicit race war without a period of brainwashing from the state to normalize it, we haven’t really seen that here yet. Serb movies tied Bosniaks to Ottoman repressions, Croat TV played cartoons of violent drunken Serbs, Rwandan radio implored Hutus to murder the Tutsis, nevermind the Nazis mastery of propaganda.
                                                                http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/tenstagesofgenocide.html

                                                                Good ideology on the side of any libertists would help them resist the trap. When I was in Kurdistan I noticed that the YPG and it’s affiliates were very much conscious to frame their enemy as “the Turkish State” and avoid racialized Turks vs. Kurds talk. I believe there’s already consensus here at least that racialism is just another toxic form of collectivism, thankfully among the broader American right white nationalism is still fringe and cringe.

                                                                If we were both at the next Constitutional Convention I’d suggest to temper your proposal by suggesting a compromise – those on entitlements only lose voting rights if they take more than they put in on taxes. I’m pretty certain the government takes far more from me on payroll and personal taxes than I cost the government on the two or three times a year I might go to the doctor.

                                                                Appalachia is actually the region that pulls the most in welfare benefits, not “urban entitlement areas”, up to a third by some estimates. Honestly at this point the poor people are being pushed out of the cities, I can only afford to live in my neighborhood post-gentrification because our family already owns the house, otherwise the rent would be too damn high.

                                                                No one ever responded to my suggestion towards confederation, I figured some of y’all would agree on that at least, I saw a few CSA patches at the VTC but I’m the only one here who took arms for a confederacy. ;-) #HumbleBrag

                                                                Agreed that any drastic political change is most likely to occur in the context of a full collapse. I still mention electoral politics because I don’t want to throw all my eggs into one basket, even if it looks like that’s the basket that’s gonna get picked. I’ve already been in one boogaloo and it was very ugly, would be even worse here where I have a home, family, belongings, etc.

                                                              • #126850
                                                                Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                Moderator

                                                                  …those on entitlements only lose voting rights…

                                                                  Agreed that any drastic political change is most likely to occur in the context of a full collapse.

                                                                  Though it should be rather obvious, when such a plan could be implemented no one will be receiving entitlements!

                                                                  A war torn remnant of our geographic former nation will not be in a position to offer any entitlements beyond traditional local charity.

                                                                  This makes the perfect opportunity to not start down that failed path!

                                                                  Remember that due to significant lower population densities post conflict there will be far more opportunities to become a landowner far more easily than today.

                                                                  The surviving demographic will bear no resemblance to todays!

                                                                • #126864
                                                                  rampantraptor
                                                                  Participant

                                                                    Though it should be rather obvious, when such a plan could be implemented no one will be receiving entitlements!

                                                                    A war torn remnant of our geographic former nation will not be in a position to offer any entitlements beyond traditional local charity.

                                                                    This makes the perfect opportunity to not start down that failed path!

                                                                    Remember that due to significant lower population densities post conflict there will be far more opportunities to become a landowner far more easily than today.

                                                                    The surviving demographic will bear no resemblance to todays!

                                                                    Charity tends to be dependent on the “goodwill” of the ultra-wealthy, who are usually ultra-wealthy via government subsidies and corporate welfare, furthermore the wealthiest would be the first to flee a warzone and their political sympathies would not be with FREEFOR but the state. Even now very few “nonprofit” charities actually spend most of their money in social work, many pull a lot of profit operating as charities. In the event of a collapse a civil administration should establish mutual aid co-ops that can cover social welfare needs independent of the government. Unless you want to engage in euthanasia and eugenics you’re gonna have folks whose physical or mental handicaps and may overwhelm the resources of a single family. There are ways to replace the need for a welfare state that don’t involve crude social Darwinism.

                                                                    One thing that’s lacking for the right is any kind of mutual aid or even charity program, it doesn’t take long through scrolling on JBGC or SRA’s Twitter feed and seeing photos of them volunteering with the homeless or giving free gun lessons. Most insurgent groups create welfare systems within their party to gain support, in places like Iraq it is political parties and not the state that tend to provide benefits, Hezbollah is also known for its numerous programs. Not that I think such networks should be tied to party affiliation but it’s a reality in conflict zones to deal with.

                                                                    This probably deserves its own thread, let me see if I can pull up more research with how this stuff has been executed IRL beyond dusty old mutualist texts.

                                                                    Redistributing the land of refugees in exile is generally frowned upon internationally. There would be space for the confiscation and redistribution of known enemy persons and entities, guidelines for seizing and repurposing enemy land and capital probably could use their own thread.

                                                                    I would argue that the general trend throughout history is for urban centers to be cosmopolitan and more liberalized, this isn’t just a phenomenon of modern American history. Any future system would have to deal with this, the reason we have an Electoral College and a Senate instead of just a parliament is because even in the time of the Founders there were differences between the populations of urbanized and rural areas.

                                                                  • #126866
                                                                    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                    Moderator

                                                                      Rampantraptor you don’t get what a collapse of the U.S. means.

                                                                      The World economy goes in conjunction or shortly afterward.

                                                                      I am expecting best case 50% of current population of U.S. survives and that is probably overly optimistic.

                                                                      These “folks whose physical or mental handicaps” you speak of, most won’t survive!

                                                                      Cities will be ghost towns with a handful of scavenging survivors.

                                                                      There will be no global response, since they’ll be in worse shape.

                                                                      China may be able to work their way here, but it won’t be to help us!

                                                                    • #126917
                                                                      veritas556
                                                                      Participant

                                                                        There are many good ideas here and it’s fun to debate them. Yet, a significant cart/horse problem exists…

                                                                        However it all unravels – probably not with a bang, but with a whimper – the winner (if it is to be something other than the current power structure) will likely be the most successful at organizing people around common goals, values and interests. These might be simple at first: coalescing around a particular political affront (Colonials/Intolerable Acts) or basic survival in the event of something more black-swan-like.

                                                                        Early on the Colonials did not rally around the concept of a “Constitution”. Most had no inclination to separate from the crown. What they did was successfully organize around a simple, common principle – that the colonies should have representation in parliament.

                                                                        Fast forward to us – what is the baseline demand of our “liberty movement”?

                                                                        Answer that. Have a singular value/issue that enough people can rally around. Lord knows you can’t get 10 conservatives in a room to agree on the same three issues but all 10 would agree that Communism is bad. Or 10 gun guys to agree on the best caliber – yet we can all agree on the value of shot placement.

                                                                        Even Hong Kong, who ignited its fire around single issue – the Chinese extradition law – has now grown to other issues and with it more followers. We should watch that script closely.

                                                                        Now organize around it. Out in the open – publicly and visibly. Build an organization in the shadows and the Fedgov will execute it (legal or extra-legal) and maybe you. Vet early members and require financial buy-in. Organizations require resources and this starts at the top.

                                                                        From this seed an entire tree might grow. And with it, a larger set of values to debate such as suffrage rights. From this your new Constitution is born. Instead we are fantasizing about warp drive when we haven’t even yet gone to Mars.

                                                                        So I ask again – what is a simple, widely-acceptable (not at first maybe, but potentially) “issue” to build a liberty movement upon… something one cannot be shamed for supporting… something that stirs a sense of deep injustice among honest men… this is the tinder. This is what we should be debating, IMO.

                                                                        • #126924
                                                                          Max
                                                                          Keymaster

                                                                            This is a good and useful post.

                                                                            I take issue with this:

                                                                            Instead we are fantasizing about warp drive when we haven’t even yet gone to Mars

                                                                            Given that my intent in the OP was to discuss forms of government in a theoretical sense, not find a solution to our current issues!

                                                                            However, that being said, it is a good and well put together comment on how to find a way out of our current situation.

                                                                            I totally agree that any sort of consensus is impossible with Libertists. Just look at Rampant’s ramblings! Nobody will agree on anything, and are too easily lost in the weeds. To me, that is first world luxury, the luxury to have the abikity to argue in such a way about politics, because there is no sense of a crocodile close to the boat. Same way we can argue about diet, because we are overwhelmed with food choice. A starving man has no such luxury! I would argue that Libertists are starving, but most cannot see it because they are still comfortable. And they believe the psyop of a free America and individual Liberty, which is long gone.

                                                                            One thing which I hugely agree on: do not attempt to be covert. The more you hide, the more you attract attention. This should be in the open as Americans standing up for Liberty as is their right! I have long said this.

                                                                            So what is the issue?

                                                                            Gun rights? Possibly soon in VA? If they bring in new anti-2A laws, that is a perfect situation for flouting them and active civil disbedience.

                                                                            Property tax and the ability to actually own property rather than rent it?

                                                                            How utterly bizarre that leftist tyranny appears to be on the cusp of legislating away the very Constituional laws that are there to prevent tyranny. But only if the citizens have the moral courage to ignore them.

                                                                          • #126925
                                                                            Max
                                                                            Keymaster

                                                                              This is a good and useful post.

                                                                              I take issue with this:

                                                                              Instead we are fantasizing about warp drive when we haven’t even yet gone to Mars

                                                                              Given that my intent in the OP was to discuss forms of government in a theoretical sense, not find a solution to our current issues!

                                                                              However, that being said, it is a good and well put together comment on how to find a way out of our current situation.

                                                                              I totally agree that any sort of consensus is impossible with Libertists. Just look at Rampant’s ramblings! Nobody will agree on anything, and are too easily lost in the weeds. To me, that is first world luxury, the luxury to have the abikity to argue in such a way about politics, because there is no sense of a crocodile close to the boat. Same way we can argue about diet, because we are overwhelmed with food choice. A starving man has no such luxury! I would argue that Libertists are starving, but most cannot see it because they are still comfortable. And they believe the psyop of a free America and individual Liberty, which is long gone.

                                                                              One thing which I hugely agree on: do not attempt to be covert. The more you hide, the more you attract attention. This should be in the open as Americans standing up for Liberty as is their right! I have long said this.

                                                                              So what is the issue?

                                                                              Gun rights? Possibly soon in VA? If they bring in new anti-2A laws, that is a perfect situation for flouting them and active civil disbedience.

                                                                              Property tax and the ability to actually own property rather than rent it?

                                                                              How utterly bizarre that leftist tyranny appears to be on the cusp of legislating away the very Constituional laws that are there to prevent tyranny. But only if the citizens have the moral courage to ignore them.

                                                                            • #126940
                                                                              Civilianresponder
                                                                              Participant

                                                                                Interesting article relevant to this discussion. This was shared with by another Alumni in Texas.
                                                                                There are things worth fighting for

                                                                                • #126955
                                                                                  Max
                                                                                  Keymaster

                                                                                    Will read.

                                                                                  • #126963
                                                                                    Max
                                                                                    Keymaster

                                                                                      It’a a decent article. I was about to break it out into it’s own thread, when I noticed it was written by Brandon Smith. I can’t excactly recall, but I got into it with him some years ago. I think it was over him peddling bullshit tactics. Seems like a good political thinker who got way ahead of himself in the area of tactics.

                                                                                  • #126950
                                                                                    dave37
                                                                                    Participant

                                                                                      This is an excellent post. It articulates some things I think I knew, but was not able to put into words.

                                                                                      The first question is, what is the cause that people will rally around?

                                                                                      My belief is that it must be a moral issue, not an economic one. The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the conservative movement that nothing mattered except lower taxes. Nobody in a prosperous country will fight and die for a tax cut. I am not going to leave the family I love more than anything for something less than life or death, and for me economic issues just don’t cut it.

                                                                                      Gun rights might well be the issue. It is certainly the only thing the conservative movement ever successfully defended.

                                                                                      The seamless transition of the homosexual activist community from gay marriage to trannies to the defense of pedophilia might be another one. I will absolutely mobilize to defend my family from that, if there were a cohesive strategy to resist it.

                                                                                      HEAT 1 2017
                                                                                      Intro to CQB 2017
                                                                                      Texas HEAT 2 2018
                                                                                      Operation TeaSinker 2019
                                                                                      Combat Leader Course 2019
                                                                                      Team Coyote
                                                                                      Team Rekkr
                                                                                      Team Cowbell

                                                                                      • #126960
                                                                                        Max
                                                                                        Keymaster

                                                                                          Dave: one of the issues you run up against is rightful liberty clashing with moral convictions i.e. trannies etc.

                                                                                          The issue is one of harm. Pedophilia is of course harm. Do actions cause harm to others. Of course, I can see that easily flipped by the unreasonable into gun rights causing harm – the commie can always flip things on their heads. Reasonable heads must prevail.

                                                                                    • #126951
                                                                                      veritas556
                                                                                      Participant

                                                                                        Gun rights have potential – particularly at the state level where the most draconian laws are passing. That’s another thing – organizing to the “aim small, miss small” principle. The state level may be the way to go where different but like-minded groups can come together as one force at some future point.

                                                                                        Property taxes is also very interesting. I actually ran for state senate in Louisiana (hey, I finished 2nd!) with abolishing property taxes as a key issue. It is an issue of liberty! It’s also one that would require a lot of education to get people on board along with a viable funding alternative for local budgets. There are probably plenty of local examples to be used to light the fire of outrage in your community. Private ownership of property IS the American Dream! Also, why can private banks borrow from the Federal Reserve at 2.5% (current AVG discount rate) yet American citizens are forced to pay 2-3x that to mortgage a home!? Imagine the home ownership rate at 2.5%! It’s more than just owning a home – it’s a bedrock for building community and roots – you know, the positive cultural forces that build this country’s wealth.

                                                                                        Also – what about…
                                                                                        Government corruption. The naked, two-tiered justice system that holds none of them accountable. I’m talking to you Hillary, Deep State, etc. Also the fact that so many “public servants” wind up rich from their “service”.

                                                                                        Would love to hear some other potentially galvanizing issues that could work…

                                                                                      • #126957
                                                                                        Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                        Moderator

                                                                                          I actually ran for state senate in Louisiana (hey, I finished 2nd!) with abolishing property taxes as a key issue.

                                                                                          This is the best thing I’ve heard from this discussion. :yes:

                                                                                          There are plenty of good ideas floating around, but few that commit to action!

                                                                                          What we need is people who actually do something, vice live in a virtual fantasy communicating crap online. ;-)

                                                                                          • #126961
                                                                                            Max
                                                                                            Keymaster

                                                                                              Veritas for Senate!

                                                                                              In Virginia? You live in Ohio, right? Or near?

                                                                                              • #126973
                                                                                                veritas556
                                                                                                Participant

                                                                                                  @Max – Live in Ohio but I’m far too tarnished to run for office now – spent too much time around you heathens!

                                                                                            • #126964
                                                                                              rampantraptor
                                                                                              Participant

                                                                                                Rampantraptor you don’t get what a collapse of the U.S. means.

                                                                                                The World economy goes in conjunction or shortly afterward.

                                                                                                I am expecting best case 50% of current population of U.S. survives and that is probably overly optimistic.

                                                                                                These “folks whose physical or mental handicaps” you speak of, most won’t survive!

                                                                                                Cities will be ghost towns with a handful of scavenging survivors.

                                                                                                There will be no global response, since they’ll be in worse shape.

                                                                                                China may be able to work their way here, but it won’t be to help us!

                                                                                                Depends on the circumstances.

                                                                                                One Second After-style EMT attack? Zombie apocalypse? With a complete collapse of infrastructure I can see this level of collapse unfolding, with mass die-offs of the frail and disorganized.

                                                                                                Boogaloo breaking out in rural conservative areas of the US? A rural insurgency that leaves most urban and suburban financial centers in regime hands is less likely to cause worldwide economic collapse and the rise of satanic cannibal biker gangs (to use a very bad prepper cliche). A depression, sure, but not a mass die-off of the United States. In Syria there was still enough of the country in regime hands that we weren’t turning Syrian pounds for bottle caps and fighting off radrats and deathclaws. (Sorry, video game reference.) I’ve heard folks compare the US to the Roman Empire, even that collapse was slow enough that in many cases authority simply transferred from explicit Roman control to Latinized local rulers. Even if the federal government were to collapse overnight there would still be state and county governments.

                                                                                                I think a rural insurgency is a more plausible scenario, which is why I assume some level of governance, or the need for it.

                                                                                                Though if every time I make a suggestion it gets dismissed as “ramblings” maybe it’s not worth the effort of contributing much more to these conversations.

                                                                                              • #126965
                                                                                                DiznNC
                                                                                                Participant

                                                                                                  OK yeah applied to the present sit. Slavery was the biggest mistake we ever made. It will be the death of this country yet. If we go the way of Rhodesia and South Africa, the entire planet is fucked.

                                                                                                  It is a mistake to discount racial hatred in this country. Saying you know a few black folks that are good folks does nothing to address the seething hatred in urban shit-holes. Not to mention the ignorant redneck fucks in the country. Regardless of who we know, or not, the problem is real.

                                                                                                  Hate to say it, but the Limey is right; nothing is gonna change until the Big One hits. And pray God your side wins.

                                                                                                  But hey other than that, have a good weekend everybody!

                                                                                                • #126969
                                                                                                  Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                                                                  Moderator

                                                                                                    Depends on the circumstances.

                                                                                                    Of course, but your not going to pull off radical government change similar to what Max proposed without a complete collapse, Whether that collapse is overnight or over years leading to a complete collapse.

                                                                                                    I think a rural insurgency is a more plausible scenario, which is why I assume some level of governance, or the need for it.

                                                                                                    I think if any such insurgency has success it will lead to a collapse. I also believe the World economy is so interconnected that a major fall of any sizable economy will bring down the rest.

                                                                                                    “ramblings”

                                                                                                    Passionate discussion isn’t unusual, I wouldn’t take it personal.

                                                                                                  • #126977
                                                                                                    Max
                                                                                                    Keymaster

                                                                                                      Come to the Alumni / Rekkr weekend in December and Saturday night we will drink, sit around the blazing inferno, and hammer this shit out. Constitutional Convention. First thoughts on impending gun bans in VA coming up in January.

                                                                                                      No FBI agents welcome.

                                                                                                    • #127703
                                                                                                      Max
                                                                                                      Keymaster

                                                                                                        What about Natural Rights? I’m going to publish this link in it’s own thread:

                                                                                                        https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/11/natural_rights_versus_political_rights.html

                                                                                                      • #127891
                                                                                                        rampantraptor
                                                                                                        Participant

                                                                                                          OK yeah applied to the present sit. Slavery was the biggest mistake we ever made. It will be the death of this country yet. If we go the way of Rhodesia and South Africa, the entire planet is fucked.

                                                                                                          It is a mistake to discount racial hatred in this country. Saying you know a few black folks that are good folks does nothing to address the seething hatred in urban shit-holes. Not to mention the ignorant redneck fucks in the country. Regardless of who we know, or not, the problem is real.

                                                                                                          I didn’t discount the threat of racial hatred entirely, I said it would be secondary to other factors in the next civil conflict. I’m surprised that this is controversial considering how defensive folks get if someone suggests racism (in the form of slavery) was the primary cause of the last civil war.

                                                                                                          It isn’t simply “I have black friends”, the only period of time I’ve ever spent living outside of Baltimore was Syria. I live in an urban shit-hole, I felt like a foreigner when I visited West Virginia. By high school being the only white kid in class was common enough I wouldn’t even notice it until it was pointed out to me. Not gonna say anything crazy like I understand being black but I have more interpersonal experience with urban black folks than rural white folks.

                                                                                                          At the same time of course I understand racial tension, I grew up in it – paranoia among urban whites about white flight and black encroachment was also constant growing up, my parents were children during the 1968 riots. If I come across as an SJW if I see an iffy comment on the forums, it’s because I’m used to random white folks trying to test my waters and see if I’ll engage them in some rant against blacks and Mexicans.

                                                                                                          Black insurgents have the same trouble as the white leftists they’ve historically cooperated with – they’re concentrated in easy-to-target urban areas and distrusted by liberal elites. The Black Panther Party sought white allies early on, culminating in the Rainbow Coalition (the original, not the Jesse Jackson shit) in Chicago. Even the Nation of Islam under Farrakhan (a legit hate group, by most definitions) has an effective détente with much of the white progressive left and toned down much of their public rhetoric as a result. If future black insurgents engaged in outright ethnic cleansing against whites they’d lose essential white progressive allies and get killed or imprisoned in their own communities. MOVE was an extremist black liberation group, they wound up in a standoff with Philadelphia police that ended in the police bombing the compound. 65 neighboring rowhomes were burnt down and the local residents displaced.

                                                                                                          Rural whites (I’ll avoid “redneck” because it has classist overtones) that sought to conduct racial attacks would have an easier time, since they have insurgent-friendly territory in the sticks. So far it seems national-level hate groups like Atomwaffen are struggling to coordinate attacks among disparate membership, the ensuing online (rather than in-person) chatter makes them vulnerable to hostile intelligence, federal or otherwise. The Klan or other more localized nativist groups may be more of a threat. My guess is the strongest obstacle to them would be public opposition to racist attacks and conflict with rival non-racist groups (folks like us, hopefully) if the FBI weren’t able to keep tabs on their communications. I’m not a rural white dude, though, y’all probably have more experience with those types than I do.

                                                                                                          That any racist white faction would have much easier fighting terrain to establish themselves than a racist black faction makes me more concerned with the risk posed by the former. Racist attacks by individuals and small groups are very likely, but larger and more organized factions have incentives against them.

                                                                                                          Sorry for the thread drift. ;-)

                                                                                                          • #127902
                                                                                                            Max
                                                                                                            Keymaster

                                                                                                              Talking about racial tensiosn does not automatically need to go to discussions of racist groups of any color. The point is more to do with urban centers and the effect of any collapse on the populace. Given that the least racist folks are actually whites, the reality is that there is a whole bunch of racual hated against whites; created by all the fairy tales about white privilege and the reinterpreting of history to replace it with bullshit. The point about a race war isn’t that any racist groups are going to do anything in particular (some may want to), but more the de facto situation when EBT cards stop, and the whole hive comes boiling out looking for food. At that point it may well look like a race war, whatever your racist proclivities are, or are not.

                                                                                                          • #127928
                                                                                                            rampantraptor
                                                                                                            Participant

                                                                                                              Talking about racial tensiosn does not automatically need to go to discussions of racist groups of any color. The point is more to do with urban centers and the effect of any collapse on the populace. Given that the least racist folks are actually whites, the reality is that there is a whole bunch of racual hated against whites; created by all the fairy tales about white privilege and the reinterpreting of history to replace it with bullshit. The point about a race war isn’t that any racist groups are going to do anything in particular (some may want to), but more the de facto situation when EBT cards stop, and the whole hive comes boiling out looking for food. At that point it may well look like a race war, whatever your racist proclivities are, or are not.

                                                                                                              Not sure the issue will be centralized in cities as much as you think but fair enough regardless, in that context the role of any FREEFOR will be to ensure such race war narratives don’t gain traction within their own in-groups.

                                                                                                              • #127930
                                                                                                                Max
                                                                                                                Keymaster

                                                                                                                  Still missing it. It’s a prediction that the urban centers, or Horde, will come boiling out into suburban and rural areas once food is no longer delivered.

                                                                                                              • #127935
                                                                                                                Pinky
                                                                                                                Participant

                                                                                                                  Come to the Alumni / Rekkr weekend in December and Saturday night we will drink, sit around the blazing inferno, and hammer this shit out. Constitutional Convention. First thoughts on impending gun bans in VA coming up in January.

                                                                                                                  No FBI agents welcome.

                                                                                                                  How about Fusion Center Commandants?

                                                                                                                • #127937
                                                                                                                  Max
                                                                                                                  Keymaster

                                                                                                                    Come to the Alumni / Rekkr weekend in December and Saturday night we will drink, sit around the blazing inferno, and hammer this shit out. Constitutional Convention. First thoughts on impending gun bans in VA coming up in January.

                                                                                                                    No FBI agents welcome.

                                                                                                                    How about Fusion Center Commandants?

                                                                                                                    Will be cast into the flaming inferno!

                                                                                                                  • #127941
                                                                                                                    rampantraptor
                                                                                                                    Participant

                                                                                                                      Still missing it. It’s a prediction that the urban centers, or Horde, will come boiling out into suburban and rural areas once food is no longer delivered.

                                                                                                                      I’m familiar with the “Golden Horde” idea and agree that very well may happen if we’re talking about full collapse of government and logistics. That being said, such a scenario is the most extreme that could happen and would have little precedent for either of us to work with.

                                                                                                                      Just my observations, even if Baltimore depopulated right now there’s still 40% of those refugees who wouldn’t be black and we’re the second-blackest city in America. (Some of that would be Asians and Latinos, but here at least anti-Latino sentiments aren’t as strong as white-black tensions yet and Asians have never been viewed as a threat by anybody because of their low numbers.) At the same time you’d also have the large number of existing rural folks also cut off from EBTs who would also engage in predatory behavoir. Appalachia itself takes a good chunk of welfare, honestly; we still got heroin, y’all got meth.

                                                                                                                      Locals could associate an influx of crime with POC refugees or they could attribute it to “the trash” or “outsiders” in general and it could have class or regional connotations. The former creates openings for hate groups among the native residents, the latter for leftist groups among the refugees. Depends on the disposition of the rural folks I suppose.

                                                                                                                      This is a thought experiment, really, hope I’m not annoying you. If you haven’t noticed by now I’m a bit of a conflict studies nerd.

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