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    • #144231
      veritas556
      Participant

        As someone with many relationships over 20 years in business that touch probably 80% of the verticals within our economy, the economic effects we’ve experienced so far reflect the score after only the second inning of the game. This is going to get much worse in terms of the economy, liberty and the civil society. The snowball is rolling downhill. While many of us hoped to play some part in the heroic restoration of the republic, defending our freedom from the vices of tyranny, I’m afraid the real enemy is hiding behind our fear.

        We are frozen between shock and denial, fearful of questioning the “experts” or appearing to oppose those who seek to protect us from ourselves. We are told that quarantine is patriotic. We are told to fly our flags in solidarity. Our very language and ethos has been co-opted by the political elites who now determine our fate. We have allowed the creation of the very thing we were warned about 250 years ago – the omnipotent rule by a select few. They now have no effective opposition and fear no man. For who can dare argue against “protecting the most vulnerable amongst us”?

        While we dither with our preps and kit, the future is being molded on our behalf. Day after day – irreversibly. It is not a future we desire but one we will forced to lie with. Why? Because as much as we suspiciously looked toward the future with our accumulation of beans and bullets, we did it as individuals. Our own “Army of One”, built upon the premise of individual defense – a strategy that history illustrates is a loser. Every time.

        Our most egregious failure has been our inability or unwillingness to build the most important of human things – organization.

        Our petty differences and idiosyncracies have distracted us from becoming any kind of force that is capable of opposing the kind of tyranny we now face. A world in which we are told what to do, when to do it and how to feel about it. George Orwell could have hardly been more prescient.

        You will most likely not get terribly sick from coronavirus, but we are surely on the path to losing what freedoms we still have in the progression of this “disease”. A short 3-6 months from now the transformation of our society will be complete. After all, it’s for the “greater good”.

        We’re seeing, in real time, the power of fear and it’s being wielded against us. A powerful tool indeed. But this knife cuts both ways. Jefferson understood this, “When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.”

        Are you willing to make the government fear you?

        I am.

      • #144232
        LittleBigBill
        Participant

          You mention a lack of organization, a point that has been brought up many times in various patriot. IIIper, Constituational posts and artcles over the years.

          I agree that “WE” don’t have an unifying organizational effort to lead from. This has been the bane of conservativeas most of my life. The closest we had in recent events is the March in Virginia earlier this year.

          Unfortunately, i don’t know the answer for establishing the organization needed.

        • #144262
          Max
          Keymaster

            I would like to give a more detailed response, but I am heading out on a Culpeper Volunteer range day.

            I totally agree on the organization point. This is something I have tried and failed at many times, trying to create something bigger than MVT. I am however having local success with Culpeper Volunteers.

            I’m not with you on the Corona. I am ready to be proved wrong. Yes, my concern is that whatever is rolled out now could be used against liberty in the same way 911 was. But I do not thing Corona is a nothing burger. I see nothing necessarily wrong with a ‘shelter in place’ in order to flatten the curve.

            Yes, it is going to impact the economy. I think perhaps it is ripping the bandaid off what was a shit show anyway. Happy to discuss and consider other viewpoints. Till tonight.

          • #144275
            hellokitty
            Participant

              I beleive that there will be long term negative effects on the economy that will impact our daily lives. However sheltering in place to limit the spread to give them a chance to develop treatment and/ stop gap vaccination is reasonable at this point to save those with underlying lung ailments. How many if you have asthma, copd? Or have children with it? This virus is deadly for those with lung issues. So I agree that shelteting and self distancing is appropriate at this time.

              HEAT 1(CTT) X 3
              HEAT 2 (CP) X1
              FOF X3
              OPFOR X2
              CLC X2
              RIFLEMAN

            • #144276
              hellokitty
              Participant

                BtW
                I have already contacted 2 local friends that are in Army reserves or Nat Guard. Forming a team as we speak.

                HEAT 1(CTT) X 3
                HEAT 2 (CP) X1
                FOF X3
                OPFOR X2
                CLC X2
                RIFLEMAN

              • #144280
                Short Stroke
                Participant

                  I agree that men are allowing fear to overtake them. We ought to be prudent and protect the vulnerable. But shutting down the entire system will eventually put millions of fathers out of work, which will be much worse than some more retired boomers dying from the coronu. If everything collapses as a result, those old boomers will die anyway.

                  We need a plan that quarantines the vulnerable but allows everything else to continue. I have to let 13 people go, and multiply that by thousands across the country…there is going to be some chaos if we allow that to go on too long.

                • #144283
                  veritas556
                  Participant

                    This really has nothing to do with the virus itself. Though I will say that if you are at-risk, then you choose to stay home. You take precautions. That’s the responsibility that comes with living in a free society. It’s also just my personal perspective.

                    This episode is showcasing not only the widespread, full power of the state we have created to rule us, but just how far they might go to achieve an end goal – whatever that might be. We are witnessing first-hand the “ends justify the means” argument played out on a grand scale.

                    If you believe it a moral and valid theory then I can understand the urge to fall in line with the governments virus games. Yet I fail to see how embracing such a philosophy squares with rightful liberty.

                  • #144284
                    Short Stroke
                    Participant

                      Yes, agreed.

                    • #144303
                      rampantraptor
                      Participant

                        I know there’s been a decent amount of mutual aid organizing on the anarchist left, though I don’t have any firsthand contact with any of those groups.

                        The nanny state socialists and progressives have been using this pandemic as cassus belli to nationalize everything. Been seeing a lot of “But it’s socialism if we do it?” sentiments online about the Trump bailouts.

                        I’m not sure what the solution is for establishing mutual aid networks is among non-leftie preppers, we can’t even get folks to organize for collective defense, which everyone agrees is necessary, let alone day to day needs.

                        I’m left with this hopeless feeling that all these folks who want to preserve liberty are so hyper-individualistic that they will never take the collective actions needed to do so, while the authoritarians have no qualms to act collectively to protect us mere plebes from ourselves

                      • #144319
                        Max
                        Keymaster
                        • #144326
                          Short Stroke
                          Participant

                            I was sold on some of these fear merchants’ messages a week ago, but more and more, these kinds of stories read like Hollywood scripts (“choking up blood”, etc) and they don’t align with the data. Check out the Medium article that trailman linked to. It uses all of the same CDC and WHO data, but interprets it with much more reason than what you see in media articles.

                            Corona is a threat to the old and those with pre-existing conditions. But so far in Italy, with thousands of deaths, the median age of death is 80. All of Italy’s fatalities under 40 were males with serious pre-existing medical conditions. That says a lot. So, when they show a family of four in NJ all dying from this, don’t forget to look at their family photo. They all spent decades being morbidly obese, which often comes with diabetes, heart disease, and hypertension. Also, being a smoker seems to be a significant risk with corona.

                            In all likelihood, millions have been infected, and still, not one child has died, and it is the old and infirm who make up the vast vast majority of deaths. We’ll be fine if we just stop causing our own collapse.

                          • #144333
                            farmer
                            Participant

                              Max, the link didn’t work for me. It came up as ” page not found “

                            • #144320
                              JohnnyMac
                              Participant
                              • #144349
                                LittleBigBill
                                Participant

                                  Yep, the page is gone. Anyone have a copy saved on their hard disk?

                                • #144362
                                  trailman
                                  Participant

                                    Look in this section

                                    https://www.propublica.org/series/coronavirus

                                    The link changed probably after it moved off the main page

                                    https://www.propublica.org/article/a-medical-worker-describes–terrifying-lung-failure-from-covid19-even-in-his-young-patients

                                    • This reply was modified 1 week, 1 day ago by trailman.
                                  • #144364
                                    trailman
                                    Participant
                                    • #144393
                                      DiznNC
                                      Participant

                                        Are we confusing two issues here? Government tyranny and common sense measures to stop the spread of a virus. Regardless of who touts what, is not staying at home and avoiding getting this bug a reasonable thing to do? Unless you think it’s all just bullshit, which is in itself an extreme allergic reaction to government and media lies.

                                        Yes, they never let an opportunity go to waste, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a big nothing burger. Every once in a while doing what’s actually good for you may align with the statist agenda. But I wouldn’t fail to take care of myself, just to spite them.

                                        If you think this is a maskirovka play to implement martial law or what-not, and you rush out to start the insurgency, it would be a real bitch to catch the virus and die. So even if what you think is right, it’s like a multi-level chess game; make your opponent think one thing, then when he reacts, he is killed by a hidden hand.

                                        So while I agree with the premise that we totally suck at getting organised, and really need to do so, this argument is a perfect example of why we don’t. This whole you’re not the boss of me thing that anarchist take to an extreme.

                                        • #144394
                                          Max
                                          Keymaster

                                            ^^^^^THIS^^^^^

                                        • #144410
                                          veritas556
                                          Participant

                                            As I said, the argument was not about the virus, but we’ll go there in a second. It was asking whether we really wanted a government of the few, powerful enough to do what it is doing. Well do you?

                                            I do not feel coronavirus is bullshit – it exists. Nor is it a ‘nothingburger’ – it has and will continue to kill people. Nor do I think it smart to go about our daily lives without precautions – as we do with a multitude of other things that could kill us in a given day.

                                            Look I get it – there are those more at risk physically and those more at risk economically in this dilemma. One group tends to comprise the “shut it down” crowd and the other opposes it. I’m clearly in the latter because I have a dog in the hunt – a business. So I’ll acknowledge my bias.

                                            But the pre-corona world was one of growing state authoritarianism and we all rallied around our Gadsden flags. Literally, a month ago. Yet in the post-corona world, where the government has really flexed its authoritarianism – we should cheer it?

                                            I’m certainly no anarchist. But civil society is built upon trust and in in America, the consent of the governed. I am merely urging people to not blindly trust these people or think, “they wouldn’t do that to us.” Ask the Jews of WWII how that worked out. Oh wait, you can’t.

                                            And to be clear, I was not urging anyone to kit-up and go kick off the insurgency. This is no time for plinking. I was/am lamenting the fact that it is now too late. We failed to heed the lessons of history because we got weak of spirit, principle and culture. This is as much a part of nature as viruses I suppose. Nations and empires rise and fall. And here we are.

                                          • #144413
                                            DiznNC
                                            Participant

                                              Now there’s where we completely agree. Empires rise, empires fall. That’s just what they do. We can sit here and argue this shit all day long; oh we shoulda done this, or now we’re fucked, or statist regimes gotta hate. At the end of the day, what the fuck does it even matter. While I certainly lament that my country has gone in the shitter, I spend zero time worrying about why that is. I just know that’s my life and times.

                                              In the end, I don’t know that we could have done anything different from just our very nature. Times get good and we get fat, dumb, and happy. Times get bad, we lean up and get hard. Peeps like me try and stay at least semi-hard to be ready for shit like this; most don’t. A lot of folks have begun to wake up to the fact that times are a-changin’ (with zero apologies to Dylan), but many are still stuck in park. Probably not a lot different from any other time in history, other than the sheer amount of boolshit written about it.

                                            • #144437
                                              rampantraptor
                                              Participant

                                                Diz knocked this straight out of the park.

                                                There have been a number of articles profiling real, down to Earth preppers as “having their moment”. For us who try to actively prepare for disaster and preserve our liberties, rather than get paranoid and say so should go outside and fight the government if they tell us to stay indoors, instead we should flip the narrative to one of “See, we’re the sensible ones now, we’re not being obedient to the government, the government is the one taking notes from us.”

                                                Not that anyone here seems so wild-minded to think we should take arms over a quarantine order but I’ve seen sentiments of the sort online. Even Ammon Bundy said something of the sort, which is a shame because he’s usually pretty rational.

                                                Trying to take arms right now would be like trying to take arms on 9/12, even if the PATRIOT Act was terrible it would have just been suicide because the mood was to rally around the bloody flag. Booging over quarantines and dying of COVID-19 would suck, what would suck even more would be burning out any public sympathy for resistance against the state over this epidemic and not having it afterwards when we really need it. At this point in time we’re not seeing any Intolerable Acts in terms of real, passable legislation over COVID-19 for anyone to rally around, just orders to stay inside, which people should be doing anyway but are too asinine to listen.

                                              • #144577
                                                DiznNC
                                                Participant

                                                  Yeah that’s pretty much my read. I mean I know the statists are gonna try and leverage this to destroy the economy, saw that coming for sure. But I’m not letting that blind me to common sense measures.

                                                  To me, a call to arms on the internet is like a call to get nekid and party at high mass; just not quite the right audience I suspect.

                                                  We’ve become a Polish parliament online, with our endless bickering, which for most has become just an end unto itself.

                                                  When I’m ready to act, I will simply do it; I won’t be on here for my “I am Spartacus” moment.

                                                • #144624
                                                  Max
                                                  Keymaster
                                                  • #144625
                                                    Robert Henry
                                                    Participant

                                                      Granted I’ve only been out of the bunker a time or two in the last couple weeks- been tethered to the phone.

                                                      I’ve made it into a small S GA town one time to a Walmart. For freaking office supplies…. :wacko: Yep, seems like you can be able to wall up and hunker down for years but if you have a business that’s going gangbusters you’ll run out of copy paper and printer ink, didn’t prepare for that part of it LOL . So hopefully I won’t die of corona for office supplies LOL.

                                                      Anywhoo, I saw NO ONE taking this seriously. Still same retarded southern charm get in each other’s faces, “hug your neck and love on ya” non sense. No one keeping any real distance from anyone else. All of these folks have TV, most of them are all over facebook and that crap- they know what they should be doing but simply are not doing it.

                                                      THAT is the problem. No one is taking personal responsibility.

                                                      Yes we can see the potential for the gubmint to grab power. The real problem- your average dumbass Amerikant isn’t taking freaking RESPONSIBILITY for their actions and health.

                                                      In a perfect world, everyone would take some freaking responsibility for themselves and their family’s health and this wouldn’t be an issue. It’s not a perfect world, dumbasses abound everywhere.

                                                      Personal responsibility for things in your life and not blaming others is the cornerstone of the liberty movement in my opinion.

                                                      www.jrhenterprises.com

                                                      Lost my MVT class list- been here a time or two :)
                                                      Team Coyote. Rifleman Challenge- Vanguard

                                                    • #144627
                                                      DiznNC
                                                      Participant

                                                        You bring up two really good points. And hope all is well down your way BTW. The first is individual responsibility; take care of what needs takin’ care of. The second is business responsibility, also takin’ care of your customers.

                                                        I think with a little common sense, the two can co-exist. No sense wrecking the economy to save the peeps. Sorta like we had to burn the village down to save it.

                                                        I hate to say it, but if this country can’t come together for something like this, we’re pretty much fucked. With the dems acting the way they are, it’s pretty much a fore-gone conclusion. But it ain’t time to stack mags and straighten pins yet.

                                                      • #144629
                                                        veritas556
                                                        Participant

                                                          I. Am. SPARTACU….. haha. Hey @Diznnc I actually wrote this whole thing just. for. you. I was really concerned for your feelings of helplessness against government tyranny. You know, the sound of enough voices being louder than gunfire and all… But if I had known you were so anti-Polish, I wouldn’t have bothered :)

                                                        • #144637
                                                          DiznNC
                                                          Participant

                                                            Hey man I couldn’t resist. I wuz thinking of that Corey Booker thang. But not anti-polish, just an old saying. Old school we used to fuck with everybody, and everybody fucked with us, back before the PC police came around and everybody got butt-hurt. Dob-scha, or bullshit as my Pollock buds would say.

                                                            I here what you’re layin’ down and I ain’t hatin’ on ya. Believe me I’m very aware of big brother and what he’d love to stick up my ass. Just time and place. I don’t conflate anti-virus procedures with deep state gov take-over; I don’t believe that will happen with Trump in office. Not that the statist won’t keep trying.

                                                          • #144645
                                                            Spencer
                                                            Participant

                                                              Old school we used to fuck with everybody, and everybody fucked with us, back before the PC police came around and everybody got butt-hurt.

                                                              I love it! Just like the scene from “Gran Torino” with Clint and the barber. It’s to the point now that if you use the wrong word, someone is either going to start crying, or shoot you. Back in the day, if it was that easy to get your goat, you were just weak. Give as good as you get and just call it a day, what’s the problem?

                                                              DCH 10/2019
                                                              H.E.A.T. 1 12/2019

                                                            • #144651
                                                              DiznNC
                                                              Participant

                                                                Ha well yeah I ain’t that far behind ‘ol Clint. That’s the way I was brought up. Guess we’re talkin about ancient history now.

                                                              • #144654
                                                                rampantraptor
                                                                Participant

                                                                  https://www.theburningplatform.com/2020/03/22/weeks-where-decades-happen/

                                                                  Interesting read, the mega-corporations are no friends of liberty by any means, which is why I’ve repeatedly said we need to reconsider what a free market should look like, with more cooperative businesses that keep the power of capital out of the hand of the oligarchs. Just my two cents.

                                                                  I should order The Fourth Turning, keeps sounding more and more prescient to our situation.

                                                                  I don’t conflate anti-virus procedures with deep state gov take-over; I don’t believe that will happen with Trump in office. Not that the statist won’t keep trying.

                                                                  The biggest threat is that each president has given the government powers that they themselves might not use to establish more dictatorial control but the next definitely will. While folks have been distracted with COVID-19, Senate Republicans are still trying to effectively ban peer-to-peer encryption.

                                                                  It is still frustrating that all these idiots that refuse to follow basic safety procedures are so willing to give the statists fuel to their fires to say “See, without authority figures we’d live in chaos!”

                                                                  I don’t think things will turn full-blown tyrannical under Trump simply because he’s not very coherent (not that he hasn’t demonstrated an attraction to strong-man leaders), perhaps the one good thing about his constant staff turnovers is that no one group of puppeteers stays long enough to call the shots. Biden, on the other hand…

                                                                  Any Democratic governors trying to crush conservatives too aggressively during this pandemic would force a response from Trump. Even if Trump himself were to turn tyrannical there’s so much support for him in the sticks it would be hard to resist him, the lefties could try in the cities but they would be surrounded and crushed just like Occupy before 2010 and Daesh a decade later. Any revolution (well, hopefully revolution and not just a reaction) I think kicks off under a Democratic presidency, that situation has the right mix of a tyrannical president and a rural insurgent population.

                                                                • #144706
                                                                  DiznNC
                                                                  Participant

                                                                    I think the ultimate issue we are facing is creeping federalism that’s gaining control over every aspect of our lives. These other issues, including pandemics, all circle back to this existential threat to our freedoms. But it’s easy to look at everything from your fame of reference and see what’s on your mind. To a black activist, everything is racist! To the Greens, everything is corporate greed! To the Bernie Bros it’s the Rich Man fucking us over! To revolutionist, it’s a gov’t plot, to the streets! Ad infinitum.

                                                                    Not that there isn’t any truth to it, just that there’s a lot more to it than your particular passion.

                                                                    The funny(?) thing is that there are folks on both supposed sides that tout this idea of a huge fed gov, which is where we’ve been heading these last few decades. And most of us would rather just be left alone, thank you very much.

                                                                  • #144711
                                                                    Max
                                                                    Keymaster

                                                                      Thoughts:

                                                                      The Last Gasp, by Robert Gore

                                                                      On another note, this corona lockdown has been pure bliss. At home with the wife and kids, getting stuff done that we are normally too busy to do. Morning runs around the property with the kids – I even got my dodgy knee up to some jogging. Problem is, the honeymoon will end.

                                                                    • #144714
                                                                      Ronin42
                                                                      Participant

                                                                        i’m still at work, and i have only seen a difference because i cant gym :scratch:
                                                                        least i can still pay bills, if only by so much.

                                                                        i’m probably going to look into gardening this weekend, like i should have been doing from the start. ill have to make more time.
                                                                        after this quasi dry run by big brother, ill put more time into getting serious about self sustainment.

                                                                        • This reply was modified 4 days, 17 hours ago by Ronin42.
                                                                      • #144720
                                                                        DiznNC
                                                                        Participant

                                                                          Ha yeah it’s true I’m getting a shit-ton of work done around the house, and it’s nice to have the wife home as well.

                                                                          And yeah you’re right, gonna get that garden in this year.

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