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    • #89278
      Dark Knight

        If this needs to be moved thats cool.

        My wife got my youngest daughter concert tickets for Christmas. The concert was this past Friday night in Philidelphia. She was allowed to bring a friend and we decided to make a weekend of it since I have never been to Philly before.
        So I wanted to di the touristy stuff and hit Independence Hall, the Liberty Bell, the Rocky steps and get a cheese steak. (A philly native friend provided the location for the cheese steaks!)
        Well, when we got to the room in Independence Hall where the Declaration of Independance, the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution were drafted, I was a bit overcome by emotion. I am a pretty patriotic person, and I spent over 20 years wearing the uniform of our Nation, having sworn to protect and defend the Constitution. Being in that small, unairconditioned or heated room, thinking back to what it would ahve been like in June, I was a bit emotional.
        There was another room that had some original drafts and other documents associated with the founding of the country. One quote stuck out, the last line of the Declaration of Independence:
        “And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.”
        I told my wife, this could not happen today, almost no one knows what honor is anymore, and so few are will to risk thier lives or their money. So many of those signers did lose everything. I am glad that there once were men like that, and hope that there will again be men with those charateristics if ever they should be needed again!

        All this has been rattling around in my head and I needed to get it out. Thanks for letting me clear my head a little!


        P.S. Never made it to the Rocky steps!

      • #89279

          I hope you enjoyed your visit. I am sure you were either sent to Jims or Tony Lukes for a more ‘authentic’ cheese steak experience.

          Your right today revolution is most likely not in the cards. There is a few reasons for this. I wouldn’t say so much about honor but rather these factors.

          1. Modern life is comfy.
          2. Young men are side tracked by drugs, pornography and mind numbing media
          3. Young men on average have lower T levels due to exposures to xenoestrogens in plastics and other products.
          4. Most middle and upper class men are not comfortable with violence.

          I do think that can change but things will have to get much worse, in essence the ‘sheep’ or ‘normies’ will have to suffer greatly before any of them decide to stand up. Look at how many ‘muh gun rights’ or ‘muh constitution’ guys talk about how they will be the next patriot and yet they have let our rights get eroded away.

        • #89280
          Dark Knight

            Jims! Whiz wit!

            I do think that can change but things will have to get much worse, in essence the ‘sheep’ or ‘normies’ will have to suffer greatly before any of them decide to stand up. Look at how many ‘muh gun rights’ or ‘muh constitution’ guys talk about how they will be the next patriot and yet they have let our rights get eroded away.

            This is what I was thinking of. There are a few who have stepped up somewhat. The people that went to Bundy Ranch and the folks at the Wildlife Refuge in Oregone or Washington.

          • #89281

              I felt the same way when I stood in Independence Hall. Of all things, it was the chairs and imagining who sat in them that got me.

              There’s an awful lot of chat about who is going be the ones who stand up and do something. But talk about resistance and fighting is cheap.

              I remember when the whole Bundy thing happened. Gun owners everywhere, including here, were all, “that’s a bunch of yahoos and this isn’t the right hill to die on.”

              I felt the same way, to be honest. But that’s the hard question. What is the right hill?

              Whoever finally does it will be portrayed as either idiots or terrorists. Unless there is some sweeping government event that drives everyone to action, which is extremely unlikely, it’s always going to be about incremental line moving.

              Another compounding factor is that the liberty-minded crowd is woefully bad at messaging and presenting an image that people take seriously.

            • #89282
              Dark Knight

                I felt the same way when I stood in Independence Hall. Of all things, it was the chairs and imagining who sat in them that got me.

                Yep. Think about Washington, Jeferson, Franklin, etc being right there. And they say the interior is about 75% original and some of the chairs are original.
                I hate to admit it, but I was almost moved to tears! Damn onion ninjas!

              • #89283
                Joe (G.W.N.S.)

                  I remember when the whole Bundy thing happened. Gun owners everywhere, including here, were all, “that’s a bunch of yahoos and this isn’t the right hill to die on.”

                  Not all of us thought that way!

                  January 7, 2016

                  Awhile back I started a Thread “Civil Disobedience”

                  Some excerpts:

                  The Editors of Encyclopedia Britannica
                  “Civil disobedience is a symbolic or ritualistic violation of the law rather than a rejection of the system as a whole. The civil disobedient, finding legitimate avenues of change blocked or nonexistent, feels obligated by a higher, extralegal principle to break some specific law.”

                  There is a rebirth of an old idea developing regarding Civil Disobedience, in many ways it seems uniquely American.

                  What is it?

                  Armed Civil Disobedience!

                  Any participation in Armed Civil Disobedience must be carefully chosen with the knowledge violence could happen.

                  These are uncharted waters so to speak and it doesn’t get anymore “in your face” than Armed Civil Disobedience.

                  I’ll admit I am not a particular fan of many of the players involved at Malheur.

                  I would have preferred either locals leading this or that “Bundy Group” had chosen one of the many Government facilities in their own AO. In my opinion addressing your own problems with government locally adds credence to why you are taking up a particular grievance.

                  That said, we seldom get to choose how things actually happen.

                  So let’s get into the “Armed” part of Civil Disobedience or Protest in this case.

                  The fact that this group is armed does not imply violent intent by participants. This is important that we do not allow the Socialists to define the narrative. It is our God given Right to “Keep and Bear Arms” and no explanation should be required or given in this regard.

                  It is equally important to remember that this group has done nothing to justify lethal force by any government agency.

                  Do we support those who have found legitimate avenues of change blocked or nonexistent and felt obligated by a higher extralegal principle to break some specific law?

                  Remember the “Boston Tea Party?”

                  Do you think all of the Colonists thought it was the appropriate course of action?

                  Did many think it wasn’t the right time?

                  So like it or not this is the situation we have been dealt.

                  The negative reaction by the media and the rest of the Socialists should not be a surprise to us and shouldn’t even factor into whether we support the Malheur Group.

                  Some would question whether our legitimate avenues of change are blocked or nonexistent. They still talk of Letters and Voting (I still do both and will continue for conscience sake), but what has that accomplished?

                  Another point that is brought up is how this isn’t bringing others to our side; even if true, so what!

                  Does anyone; but the most naive among us, still believe we can fix our Nation at the Ballot Box?

                  At best it would seem to me that we can delay things through voting.

                  It’s the next logical step in the fight for Rightful Liberty and a necessary one, we must truly exhaust all nonviolent options for us to have legitimacy in the quest for true Rightful Liberty.

                  I believe Armed Civil Disobedience to be one of the last nonviolent options available.

                  Hasn’t this already been demonstrated by the various “I will not Comply!” protests?

                  Law enforcement sure doesn’t seem to be too interested in enforcing these new laws that were broken in those Protests!

                  What if the Malheur Group does have informants/provocateurs in it?

                  Beyond rumors and speculation, what are the negative consequences that have occurred due to either Bundy Ranch or Malheur?

                  I think it’s already been established that we will not get positive Media, so why do we care that the Socialists think?

                  What about this fear of government response by so many in our community?

                  Consider this information (abridged) from “Interesting Threats and Numbers,” yes I am bringing them up again.

                  Law Enforcement:

                  Local 461,063 Personnel
                  State 60,772 Personnel

                  Total: 521,835 Personnel


                  DHS Total: 208,670 Personnel
                  DOJ Total: 50,197 Personnel
                  Other Armed Federal Employees: 56,342 Personnel

                  Federal Civilian Total: 315,209 Personnel

                  Military 2014 Fiscal Year End strength numbers 1,364,400 Active Duty personnel
                  Total Military: 2,198,100 Personnel

                  Combined Total: 3,035,144 Personnel

                  I think it is fair to assume that not all Local/State/Federal/Military would comply, though how many is debatable.

                  So what about our numbers?

                  Depending on the sources there are around 135,000,000 gun owners in the US. If we apply the Classic 3% figure to just gun owners (vice population) we have 4,050,000.

                  So we out number them by a significant margin and I think it is again fair to assume there are others that will awaken to join us as things unfold.

                  So how do these numbers compare to some other historical events?

                  Well it is worth noting that Northern Ireland is about the size of Connecticut and during the height of the IRA operations, actual combatants (terrorists); vice sympathizers, numbered only in the hundreds.

                  We have millions in a area over 665 times larger.

                  Consider the last 14 years of OEF in Afghanistan, does anyone doubt that we can do better than the insurgents there?

                  I would say the collective fear and paranoia of many in our community is a little inflated.

                  In fact I think it’s the Socialists who should be in great fear!

                  Of course I am not saying it will be easy, but the only way they can win is if we give up or allow ourselves to fight each other.

                  January 9, 2016

                  The Malheur protest is not counter productive. Wake the fuck up. No one else is doing anything to draw attention to the constitutional illegality of the BLM. It is an effective protest that will not go the the way predicted by all the paranoid doomsayers.

                  It’s interesting that Sam’s article is about the same retard, Yingling, which my post on fear and paranoia addressed. I going to have to do more on the wing nut element of the black helicopter militia, and the harm it does the cause of liberty. I would not stand on the line with nut jobs like Yingling. Why would any other rational armed citizens / veteran?

                  This shit needs to be gripped. The paranoia and fantasy needs to go away if anyone wants to think about advancing the cause of liberty.

                  I’m tired of the nutters.

                  I beg you, stop entertaining the paranoia and the ridiculous ‘reports’ about ‘delta force’ etc. Oath Keepers is also guilty of this fear spreading.

                  January 12, 2016

                  Malheur: What’s the downside?

                  Why don’t we focus more on the opposite question, eh?

                  Because I can can think of many good points, but have yet to see anyone point out what I would consider a legitimate “Downside” beyond general fearmongering.

                  So with over 30 views this Thread has yet to see someone make an argument to the negative.

                  So the question remains, why shouldn’t we support this effort?


                  January 31, 2016

                  “Sunshine patriots” say “I told you so!” regarding the current status of the Malheur Protest, quick to criticize too fearful to act.

                  Many were blinded by their own arrogance thinking only they have the answers and anyone standing up to the Federal Government outside of their “Playbook” is wrong. Of course their playbook is too secret for dissemination.

                  Still others demonstrate the height of their ignorance by not understanding the difference between a “Protest” and a “Paramilitary Operation.”

                  It has clearly shown that there are still people willing to stand for their beliefs at great personal risk (actions vice words).

                  The Malheur Protest participants have given a new generation a look at the willingness of Government to Murder in plain sight with no hope of Justice for victims family.

                  These events at Malheur have brought to light those that truly stand for Liberty vice those that would pay lip service to our ideals for profit and prestige.

                  It has demonstrated the need for professional rational analysis of events in support of Rightful Liberty. No longer can we let those with contrary agendas, emotional bias, or fearful fantasies influence our thoughts and actions. Consider the history and accuracy of those you rely on.

                • #89284

                    The whole 3% thing is basically a myth, so the numbers I’ve come to look at are these:


                    500,000 is the number of active Turkish military personnel. 5,000 is the (higher) estimate of active PKK fighters. That’s literally 1/100th the size of the Turkish military. 40 years in Turkey has been unable to crush the PKK. This is also considering PKK tactics can be haphazard and that the PKK has committed a number of errors in judgement that have hampered them within that span of time, but back to the point.

                    Just noticed that’s actually smaller than 3%, that’s 1%. (I’m not so good at the maths.) Estimates of participation in the American Revolution are more like 15% for those curious.


                    That’s the number of active US military personnel.


                    There’s your magic number, rounded up.

                    For the sake of comparison, Bundy Ranch was somewhere between 300 protesters (Bundy claim) and 100 protesters (Fed claim).

                    The only way I see things getting hot here is if federal gun bans are passed and the Feds seriously fuck up while enforcing them, e.g. Waco. If it’s a firefight over state bans the reaction will be more along the lines of “Well California/Maryland/Massachusetts/etc. is fucked anyway, they should have moved.” Most likely things keep moving incrementally, unless the Dems get big gains in a short amount of time, assume their social mandate has greater legitimacy than it really does, and shoot for the stars.

                    If times are good, of course there’s a low probability of widespread support for armed resistance to the government. We’re due for a recession in 2020 by many accounts so the good times might get rough again, and considering that many parts of the markets didn’t fully recover from 2008 the next recession could be worse. It isn’t a matter of “Young men these days are pussies!” because that’s probably been a refrain since the cave man days, it’s a matter of when things get bad enough that enough folks say “Fuck it!” and seek action…Yellow vests anybody?

                  • #89285

                      it’s a matter of when things get bad enough that enough folks say “Fuck it!” and seek action…Yellow vests anybody?

                      I concur the ‘normies’ or ‘sheeple’ in france are much less comfy than their american counterparts thus that is why you see the yellow vest riots.

                      The Yellow vests are suffering much more then the working middle class and poor here in the US. These people have been invaded by thousands if not millions of economic illegal immigrants, who do not share the same cultural and social values as the historic demographic of France. Also the countries are much smaller so moving away from urban areas 1 more exit down on the highway isn’t as easy in Europe. They have had increased food pricing due to crop losses in europe and trade partners. Plus the taxes that they pay for global warming or what ever other taxes they pay for services. Also note that less than 20% of the “refugees” have found employment which puts a greater demand on socialist services.

                    • #89286

                        As far as the “hill to die upon” goes, I’ve thought for a long time that the hill most patriots will die on is their front porch.

                        What the patriots don’t “get” is unity.

                        Our enemies get it.

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