Government when there is no government

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    • #126832
      jriggs
      Participant

        Max’s post on fixing the government is a great post. I agree that having skin in the game in terms of voting will fix a lot of problems. After all in the land of children no one can beat Santa Claus.

        I am posting this separate because I don’t want to detract from that post. My question is this: What is the best form of government when there is no government I.e. things are so bad that there isn’t really a government to speak of. How do you govern your tribe, group, community.

        In my opinion the benevolent law giver with a trusted/wise council is the best option. I would also suggest that much of the council would be made up of heads of families who make up your group/community. This would also hopefully include most of your subject matter experts.

        The ideal law giver:

        A king does not abide within his tent while his men bleed and die upon the field.  A king does not dine while his men go hungry, nor sleep when they stand at watch upon the wall.  A king does not command his men’s loyalty through fear nor purchase it with gold; he earns their love by the sweat of his own back and the pains he endures for their sake.  That which comprises the harshest burden, a king lifts first and sets down last.  A king does not require service of those he leads but provides it to them.  He serves them, not they him.

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      • #126833
        Max
        Keymaster

          Consider this:

          1) the ‘chief’ of the group who is served by a council of wise men. Thus leader and advisors.

          2) a group of learned and wise advisors who delegate tasks to specified individuals. Thus, the wise men may delegate a war leader, and task him with security / operations.

          In the latter case the war leader is subordinate to the council, in the former he leads them.

          This may come down more to the relative ages of people and the group itself. A leader of senior age may not be able to lead by example, and thus may delegate. A more fit leader may choose to lead from the front.

          I do agree that in these circumstances we are not dealing with an issue of democracy. It is more of a tribal situation. A little like the old pirate thing where the captain had total decision making ability in action, but not when out of danger, but modified to any voting being done by a smaller council, and not the whole ship / tribe.

        • #127018
          jriggs
          Participant

            Makes a lot of sense to me. I think one problem that will come up is that in life and death situations in order to secure long term liberty you may have to give up immediate control. As mentioned before there is a vast difference between being liberty minded and a lone wolf. I’m afraid that many people don’t have enough of a check on their ego to build a strong healthy tribe.

            Team Rekkr

            • #127022
              Max
              Keymaster

                Well, this is a really useful discussion that many need to be involved in, but so far it is just you and me.

                I notice many issues. Ego is chief among them – the untested false ego that many have nowadays, which lacks humility.

                There is a very selfish streak across America. I could get into detail on that, but probably not right now. People will get upset. This was behind my previous posts about ‘the selfish prepper’.

                But then again, the ‘right’ has a terrible time with any sort of consensus and ability to form a workable team. Given that, the issues of ego and so-called rugged individualists, I can well see how people say ‘fuck it’ and just focus on looking after their family.

                I have written about leadership before. You have to have a structure and self discipline. People have to suborn themsleves to those who are best at whatever the task is. That is the bigest issue – the insecure are unable to do this.

                I am somewhat jaded. But I still have hope. But until we can see some real ability to form team them count me as a selfish prepper. Modern society has not equipped many modern Americans for this sort of situation. They go through life as legends in their own lunchbreak and are never held to account.

            • #127023
              Joe (G.W.N.S.)
              Moderator

                Some random thoughts…

                You have to have team players, not people who are only happy to play along when things are good.

                Warning signs are people who want to micromanage things.

                A good leader will make the end result clear and will not worry about the little details. This assumes the person delegated is qualified for the task.

                Leadership owns the results of his delegation. Pointing fingers when things go wrong, but taking credit when things go well is again a major problem.

                Don’t assume just because their resume says they can, that they actually can.

                This is particularly true of military veterans!

                Not all veterans are created equal. ;-)

                Can they walk the talk?

              • #127037
                dave37
                Participant

                  It sounds to me like what is being proposed here is the system of government that arises spontaneously in relatively small groups of humans. A natural hierarchy based on inherent traits. I read Sebastian Junger’s “War” years ago, and he talked about Dunbar’s Number, which is (I think) an anthropological term for the approximate natural size of a human tribe. As I recall, it was around 150, which Junger noted as being the approximate size of an infantry company.

                  I suspect that this system of government would work great up to about that number, and then it would run into problems of scaleability above that, related to the inability to form a personal relationship of trust with large numbers of people.

                  For larger groups you might need something more complex, but that is no reason not to use something like the above at the basic level.

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                • #127090
                  RobRoy
                  Participant

                    Off in the weeds time, because I like weeds. Anyone watch the show “Last Kingdom?” My point being it is the entertainment industry’s take on Anglo-Saxon governance as King Alfred a progressive of his day was trying to cobble together a defense against the barbarians while initiating reforms to his society such as education and law.

                    What I liked was the concept and practice of Councilman of a township, and to keep this short after the Clownworld Empire collapses that is about the best we can expect and frankly I really like my Anglo-Saxon heritage.

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