FOF when both have NODS

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  • This topic has 8 replies, 5 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 11 months ago by Anonymous. This post has been viewed 166 times
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    • #95561
      mark9mmp
      Participant

        Any one here have experience with force on force when both have equivalent night fighting options? It seem at that point an IR laser is a beacon of death to you. Anyone running successful passive aiming like Eotech with NV settings or weapon mounted sights?

        "Ah, so you're that dick"

      • #95562
        rommel
        Participant

          I’m game.

        • #95563
          mark9mmp
          Participant

            I ran an Eotech XPS 3 I borrowed that seemed to work well fyi.

            "Ah, so you're that dick"

          • #95564
            Max
            Keymaster

              I’m on mobile. Short initial response. IR light discipine is key. Aiming lasers need to be used on momentary.

              Are guys fixing PVS to rifles to use with NV red dots? Just clarify this to me. Because I cannot imagine trying to cluster my head mounted NV behind my rifle mounted red dot.

              As long as you do not give the ambush away, opening fire with IR aiming lasers on momentary should not be a big issue. Remember you are also causing muzzle flash. Perhaps muzzle sugnature was a lot lower using BFA for blanks used with MILES, and UTM does not have muzzle flash. This is an additional factor which may have weighted how people acted.

            • #95565
              mark9mmp
              Participant

                Some of the PVS were affixed to the rifles, I did actually try to use a red dot with my NODS on my helmet, I know its goofy but I had to try it. It wasn’t as bad as I thought because I ran it pretty far forward. Not claiming it was great but I did honestly prefer it to actually weapon mounting it as I was more concerned with moving than shooting at that point. I think if one was going to try it, getting the RDS far forward and up, like carry handle height wouldn’t be the end of the world. Of course the laser was king overall for ease of use. The BFA did lower muzzle signature a bit but not as much as you may think, under NODS it was still very bright. UTM as you mentioned was none. Maybe its much ado about nothing and simple training would negate it, it just seemed pretty wild to me. It made me wonder if using a laser on momentary was enough. Im curious if you guys have ever done FOF with sims under nods yet. I think it was great learning experience. Also since MILES is laser based you do see your shots, which kinda screws with you.

                "Ah, so you're that dick"

              • #95566
                A_A_Ron2guns
                Participant

                  Its about the same as using tracers if you have good light discipline.

                  You observe with nods get a good shooting position and use momentary IR laser. Then you maneuver.

                  Max brings up an excellent point about muzzle flash. It’s why I think nods and suppressors go hand in hand. Another factor is thermal sights. Having a mix of them in both active and passive modes can give you an edge.

                  Buying a second nod for a rifle is expensive and unnecessary if you follow basic patrolling principles.

                  Equipment is rarely a substitute for skill and in a peer on peer fight it will always come down to skill.

                • #95567
                  Anonymous
                  Inactive

                    1 to what the other guys said.

                    Our NODs were mostly rifle-mounted, sometimes guys might have handheld NODs or even more rarely old head-mounted ones, but in combat it was mostly rifle-mounted on the unit’s M-16, which was used as our DMR at night. Most platoons had one rifle-mounted NODS, except for “sniper” platoons who had DMRs throughout the unit. (Dragunovs were easier to get than M-16s but good luck finding a Picatinny rail bracket to mount NODS on so they were only used during the daytime.) I recall one gear-crazy Westerner bringing an IR laser to use with his head-mounted NOD but beyond that I have no experience with them.

                    One guy on the assault team is thermalci (that’s the term we used anyway), when you move from one point to another you’re taking regular pauses for him to do thermal checks with his rifle to see if anything goofy is ahead of you, if not then proceed forward a bit longer, then do thermal checks again, repeat as necessary. Since thermalci is focusing on thermal work if you approach a building or structure someone else is still providing cover on point as he focuses on the thermal checks, thermalci will usually be second after the point man in the column. His natural night vision is probably fucked from the NODs so you don’t want him on point anyway. In my experience our thermalci was usually the team leader, though I don’t recall that being a solid rule one way or the other, more that our team leaders tended to have more sniper experience to be thermalci.

                    Honestly it’s almost the same procedure you’d do for daytime (swap thermalci with sniperci) except visibility is shittier because it’s dark and only thermalci has a good view of what’s ahead. Our unit ran night ops almost exclusively because moving in the city during the daytime means you’re visible to everybody, not just the guys with NODs, so you’re much more likely to take fire.

                    That’s how we ran rifle-mounted NODs against NODs-equipped assholes anyways.

                  • #95568
                    Max
                    Keymaster

                      @rampantraptor – thank for the interesting input, thing is, it’s another lesson in how not to do things, Syria lessons.’

                      Your ‘one gear-crazy Westerner bringing an IR laser to use with his head-mounted NOD’ is the one that had it right, but you ha not frame of reference or training to know this.

                      Your thermal guy is also getting it right with his scans, but that is my standard teaching. But unless that is a thermal mounted sight attached to his rifle, he is using it right but it is wrong to attach to his rifle. Is it a sight or just a thermal device?

                    • #95569
                      Anonymous
                      Inactive

                        @rampantraptor – thank for the interesting input, thing is, it’s another lesson in how not to do things, Syria lessons.’

                        Your ‘one gear-crazy Westerner bringing an IR laser to use with his head-mounted NOD’ is the one that had it right, but you ha not frame of reference or training to know this.

                        Your thermal guy is also getting it right with his scans, but that is my standard teaching. But unless that is a thermal mounted sight attached to his rifle, he is using it right but it is wrong to attach to his rifle. Is it a sight or just a thermal device?

                        Yeah, I know the “gear nut” had the right gear and I trusted his judgement since he was an Army infantry vet himself, but the rest of us didn’t train on it since it was his personal gear and he was the only one that had that kind of equipment. (YPG advised us against bringing military gear because of the risk of getting questioned or caught by Asayish in the KRG and then there’s ITAR regulations on top of that so only the more experienced ex-mil guys who had no shits to give generally brought battle rattle.)

                        I honestly can’t recall what model our night optic was, it was a sight rather than just a night vision monocular, I remember my commander saying it cost like five grand and it looked something like a PVS-series optic, you could save different settings for different rifle zeroes and the on-screen color and whatnot. I wasn’t thermalci and it was sensitive equipment so I only used it like twice during training. Later during the Raqqa op we did also acquire a handheld thermal monocular, which we used on guard duty. Honestly I wish I knew more about NODs to give more detail but it’s always been out of my price range so I never read up on it much.

                        Helmets were hard to come by, we never had any helmets that had brackets for helmet-mounted optics during my time in operations, let alone the mounts themselves.

                        I figured that our tactics were probably out-of-date compared to what you guys teach based on the previous comments. Since the other guys were asking about using weapon-mounted NODs I recalled what we did within our limitations, this is a case of being able to use better tactics because we can buy better gear here, if you can afford it, of course.

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