Feedback on CRS & DCH Classes

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    • #95400
      Max
      Keymaster

        I am interested in getting some feedback on the Combat Rifle Skills and Defensive Concealed Handgun Classes. This is overall useful for MVT.

        CRS & DCH are run in Romney (and mobile) by Scott and in Spokane by Chris. So they are cadre-run classes, based on the square range, but really good sound classes.

        Recently, and I guess overall, we have not had a great uptake / attendance at these classes. Although I can vouch for them being excellent we are just not getting the numbers.

        Reality: Couple of weeks ago in Spokane, CRS ran with 2 students. DCH is running at the VTC this weekend with 4 students. CRS ran a couple of weeks ago at the VTC with 5 students.

        Now, I have some ideas as to why, but am I correct?

        I am thinking that:

        1) People do not look to MVT for square range classes. Although we know the quality of the classes they DKWTDK, and why can’t they just get that training from Joe Smo at the local range, right?

        2) Perhaps people mainly look to MVT for what they see as the tactical combat range stuff, and do not see the quality of the progression?

        3) People already think they can shoot, when they can’t and mainly they can’t manipulate their weapons, but that is a cultural arrogance that is hard to change.

        Am I on track? What thoughts do you have? Are the cadre simply not well known enough, despite their quality, to attract students who can go to some of the big name tacticool / Instagram hero guys?

        What do we do – let those classes go, and then have a training gap? Work to advertise more – how and to who? Maybe simply only run them a couple of times a year? Only do private classes on request?

      • #95401
        Mike Q
        Participant

          Trump was elected. Therefore all is well with the world…

          Wait a sec… Who are all these Antifa people kicking the crap out of people who don’t agree with them? Why are they assaulting anyone who they think is on the “Right”?

          Or what about that Fat Asshat in North Korea? I mean its only North Korea what the hell can they do?

          I’d like to say keep the classes because that’s how I progressed through MVT. But if you’re losing money then that won’t work in a business sense. I think marketing has to increase to have your name known more. But how to do that is challenging. I’m no marketing person. Are there any forum members you can tap to help “professionally” market the MVT brand?

        • #95402
          hellokitty
          Participant

            A lot of schools have rules that in order to take advanced course they must have had basic courses within past 12 months. It keeps the basic courses going and as we all know, no one is really as good as their ego tells them, so it is good for students. Also, it improves your advanced classes because it decreases your randomness in gun handling etc.

            HEAT 1(CTT) X 3
            HEAT 2 (CP) X1
            FOF X3
            OPFOR X2
            CLC X2
            RIFLEMAN

          • #95403
            Robert
            Participant

              Both are needed parts of the progression.

              Even if you have trained other places, it’s nice to get a POV on how other instructors teach things. Too often people take quote a pistol class unquote and think they are good to go. It’s rare to find someone who is truly “good” with a pistol IME. So I think people deluding themselves has a lot to do with it.

              People can think they “got this” after just one class somewhere but that’s rarely the case. On CTT these things are done under a bit of pressure on the lanes. If your skills are brand new, your going to have some problems. Better to go to CRS and FIRM UP your skill sets first IMO.

              We can ASSUME foundations and fundamentals are there but they not always are. I have made that “ass”umption before working with some guys that had done a lot of Appleseed type training. Watching some shoot close range (under 50 yards), I saw a lot of holes in the game. Stuff that would have been addressed Day 1 at a good tactical rifle class.

              Don’t drop the classes, maybe less = more but you need to have an entry portal.

            • #95404
              Max
              Keymaster

                Preaching to the choir really Robert – you are not wrong, which is why we have the progression, it is all good quality training. But what are people out there thinking?

                We did take the decision to not make CRS a prerequisite for CTT, and to have CTT with the optional RS day on the Thursday and the Friday on the flat range. CRS was designed really to build skill and confidence, and also as a venue for those who do not quite feel ready for the tactical ranges, or spouses/family etc who want more of a flat progression. But I don;t see it greatly being used for that.

                I have used a 4 day CRS/CTT class, with 2 day CRS standalone as an option, before in Texas and Idaho. It is basically a reworked RS.CTT 4 day, with no choice on the first day.

              • #95405
                Civilianresponder
                Participant

                  I think it’s mainly a matter of marketing. What problem do people have that mvt can provide a solution to? Thats always the key to selling something. What venues can be used to attract interest? As I have said before I think that having advocates attending local gun shows and selling prepaid vouchers to classes can be very effective.
                  Just my .02

                • #95406
                  Max
                  Keymaster

                    People are mentioning marketing, but MVT is very well known across the States. Through the books, website, etc. We have made a lot of organic marketing efforts. But are we known to the right people? WE have already discussed that many preppers / homesteaders / angry right wing types doe not actually train.

                    This is part of the reason for TacGun. But I feel my point on TacGun is already lost on this forum, given by lack of input and so far lack of TacGun patch sales.

                    I swear if you dyed in the wool preppers could get on TacGun you would make a positive difference. How many of you are angry right wingers hanging over from my WRSA days?

                    Because fuck all of you.

                    :yahoo:

                  • #95407
                    hellokitty
                    Participant

                      IMO
                      You need an advanced course for pistol. Like CQB HOME DEFENSE or ACTIVE SHOOTER. It is catered to clearing buildings as a single using pistols. Use UTM in the huts. Throw in hostage situations. All done in a concealed mode, not battle belts.

                      Make DCH a prerequisite. You will see both classes fill up.

                      HEAT 1(CTT) X 3
                      HEAT 2 (CP) X1
                      FOF X3
                      OPFOR X2
                      CLC X2
                      RIFLEMAN

                    • #95408
                      Max
                      Keymaster

                        HK: fucking genius. Need to look into UTM for pistols though, may be complicated.

                      • #95409
                        Max
                        Keymaster

                          There is the issue. Multiple pistol conversion kits.

                          https://utmworldwide.com/pistol-hub/

                        • #95410
                          Civilianresponder
                          Participant

                            Being well known and reputable is just the basis to support for your active marketing efforts. Actively selling people your classes. Things like gun shows, ads on local gun sales sites, seminars, etc. TacGun is a marketing vehicle that can broaden the appeal of your training. The simunition/ utm based classes are a great way to draw people. A company that is local to me does Active shooter response classes two three times a year that are always sold out. They use two UTM glocks and a paintball rifle to simulate active shooter scenarios. These classes are 1/2 defensive pistol and 1/2 day active shooter scenarios. They also do these classes as a two day with one day of trauma care.

                          • #95411
                            hellokitty
                            Participant

                              For UTM day/s only. Stick with Glock conversions only. Have some Glocks to use. Only need 2 along with a cheap holster and a mag pouch each. Since your doing single clearance with 1 OPFOR, you can switch out the Glocks if needed. Most people carry Glocks anyway.

                              On live fire range days, students can use their own pistols and gear.

                              To keep costs down, have only two Glocks set up for UTM for days at the huts. You can acquire bolts for Glocks as you grow the class. Have some glock holsters and mag pouches that are snap on so easy to swap between students.

                              You can’t accommodate every pistol make people carry. Stick with Glocks.

                              HEAT 1(CTT) X 3
                              HEAT 2 (CP) X1
                              FOF X3
                              OPFOR X2
                              CLC X2
                              RIFLEMAN

                            • #95412
                              hellokitty
                              Participant

                                You can also develop a concealed hqndgun CQB night course using handheld flashlights. You can spend a whole day live fire range during day learning light shooting techniques. Not pistol mounted lights. Would you point your pistol at your kids since your only light is on your gun? No, so need to learn shooting one handed using a light in offhand. Which is hard. Waaa. Then go to huts and run CQB at night with lights.

                                I do not recommend combining these classes. Learning how to shoot with a handheld light is technique unto itself. Also doing CQB at night with a light is another skill set.

                                HEAT 1(CTT) X 3
                                HEAT 2 (CP) X1
                                FOF X3
                                OPFOR X2
                                CLC X2
                                RIFLEMAN

                              • #95413
                                JohnnyMac
                                Participant

                                  1) People do not look to MVT for square range classes. Although we know the quality of the classes they DKWTDK, and why can’t they just get that training from Joe Smo at the local range, right?

                                  The other two points are absolutely in play, but I think it’s mainly this.

                                  And hellokitty’s idea for UTM home defense, active shooter pistol class is gold. A general CCW FoF class, I would expect to be extremely popular, and not many people doing it (“FoF Street Tactics” sounds pretty cool ;-)). I think starting with 2 glock conversions is perfectly acceptable.

                                • #95414
                                  Civilianresponder
                                  Participant

                                    The first active shooter course with UTM is a real eye opener as far as where you are in your training. It really demonstrates the need that you have to further your abilities so you are harder to kill.

                                  • #95415
                                    Weber
                                    Participant

                                      CRS is an incredibly valuable course but I think you are right in saying people want to do more of the tactical range stuff instead of square range activities, probably because CRS doesn’t sound sexy on paper. I just wonder if you were to add some elements of shoot and move to CRS and add a third day, a half day preview of CTT, maybe that would draw in more people? I’m thinking it’s a long trip for some to make for two days if people are only doing CRS. I know you offer CRS before CTT so you are already doing something similar but maybe this would be something to think over if you are keeping CRS as a stand alone course.

                                      I took CRS about three years ago, instead of jumping right in to CTT. I wanted the progression and I was glad I made that decision. But when I showed up for CTT, I still felt like I was drinking from a fire hose and it showed in my performance. Practicing some shoot and move tactics prior to CTT would have been beneficial to me and possibly others. Just my .02 for what it’s worth.

                                    • #95416
                                      Thomas
                                      Participant

                                        Max,

                                        MVT has an existing reputation. That reputation has been discussed in detail here on several different occasions.

                                        First, I am a believer in what you do at MVT. That said, you might make gains in your training audience were you to consider expanding your square range work. Personally, I can not stand shooting with other people because I do not trust them to manipulate their weapons safely. Forget shooting accuracy. The square range work at MVT is some of the safest I have ever encountered. Making CRS and/or DHC prerequisites is probably not the right course. Using CRS and DHC to bring people into TacGun is a definite possibility.

                                        Advertising the crap out of those two courses as an intro to TacGun might make some inroads for you on that front. TacGun is the right idea for what you want to accomplish at MVT. CQB with both rifle and handgun could open the door to training after people discover DKWYDK.

                                        Marketing is a definite issue. Having MVT information in magazines is not the same as marketing which is not the same as advertising. Advertising and marketing are subsets of targeting. Done individually or toward an audience, the target has to be identified and information developed to exploit the target for execution.

                                        Both CRS and DCH are important and necessary courses. CRS particularly needs to be expanded and exploited by shooters with limited experience even where the student is a prior service military person. Too many riflemen are riflemen in name only. CRS might be expanded to include a non-shooting day of target identification where the targets move from limited concealment to extremely camouflaged.

                                        With all of this, you can not make someone shoot and practice. They must want it more than you want it for them.

                                        Scott’s DHC course is an excellent entry level course that improves the skills for all levels of shooters. Adding a third day to DHC could make that into a masterful shooter’s course.

                                        Both courses are skills development courses. They need to stay in the course catalogue. How you change them to make them more appropriate is the real debate.

                                      • #95417
                                        veritas556
                                        Participant

                                          The responses here are leading down the right path – the training offerings must be unique on their face. For the more basic classes you are fighting the economic law of substitute goods.

                                          Most people so inclined have many defensive handgun and basic carbine classes offered close to home- all with no travel time or expense. Now you may say “our classes are better” and that may be so – but you’ll have to educate people. YDKWYDK, right? That requires advertising.

                                        • #95418
                                          Max
                                          Keymaster

                                            Thanks for the feedback so far. Just quickly:

                                            CRS already has shooting on the move (assault drill) and buddy fire and movement on it.

                                            I am not lookibg to expand to 3 days on CRS. Part of the deal is that it is accessible on a weekend.

                                            I am also not really looking to change the POI for CRS or DCH at all. They are excellent.

                                            Suggesting a number of new classes is onw thibg, and has some value, but in the MVT business world each new class takes time to get the word out ans develop. We need to focus on what we have right now.

                                          • #95419
                                            gramma
                                            Participant

                                              Ok, here goes.

                                              I REALLY NEEDED the DCH class. I may take it AGAIN, because that’s how much I needed it. Yes, I would also take a strictly night class (can’t continue after an 8 hr day; that’s my problem – not the class) and the pistol CQB.

                                              I WANT to take CRS – because I have no clue about the AR platform. Seriously; brand new. Before I decide if my training has me fit enough for CTT.

                                              Yes, I had had two other pistol classes before taking DCH – one was the NRA Basic Pistol. I still didn’t know what I didn’t know. You simply can’t, until you “do”. And the class is where you “do” while under observation – so you don’t develop bad habits, so little improvements with big impact can be made (once they’re explained or pointed out). The class is so full of things to pay attention to, that I am 100% sure I didn’t catch it all the first time – especially later in the day when I started to fade.

                                              The square range classes minimize the amount a person has to pay attention to – and when you’re trying to keep up, having a set number of things to be aware of is extremely helpful. Sure, I knew how to load magazines, point and aim, pull the trigger. But there were 100 different little things that were adjusted during those 2 days that I wouldn’t have caught on my own > gotten tired & frustrated > given up. I’d never drawn from a holster before – it wasn’t hard, but the first 50 times, you betcha I was going slow & paying attention to what I was doing.

                                              I didn’t want to take any other kind of class, because I want to learn to shoot TACTICALLY – to stop a threat, not kill a target – in self-defense. I can learn all the neat “tricks” of shooting later if there’s time at my age… but I NEED to learn, the TacGun approach of shooting in a tactical situation, with all that entails.

                                              That’s what I want to train for – not competition, not speed-draws – I want to stay alive if I’m ever in an armed confrontation.

                                              Period.

                                            • #95420
                                              Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                              Moderator

                                                I am thinking that:

                                                1) People do not look to MVT for square range classes. Although we know the quality of the classes they DKWTDK, and why can’t they just get that training from Joe Smo at the local range, right?

                                                2) Perhaps people mainly look to MVT for what they see as the tactical combat range stuff, and do not see the quality of the progression?

                                                3) People already think they can shoot, when they can’t and mainly they can’t manipulate their weapons, but that is a cultural arrogance that is hard to change.

                                                Am I on track? What thoughts do you have? Are the cadre simply not well known enough, despite their quality, to attract students who can go to some of the big name tacticool / Instagram hero guys?

                                                I suspect all of the above apply to varying degrees depending on potential individual student.

                                                So what can be done?

                                                Keep promoting there importance as you already have been.

                                                Promoting the Cadre’s background and experience more couldn’t hurt, assuming the Cadre are open to it. Perhaps a few “war story” Blog posts?

                                                A YouTube video Meet the trainer? Some footage of them conducting training a few slides of photos and/or video from their past?

                                                Does anyone know any regularly published gun writers that we can entice into an article or get to attend a course?

                                              • #95421
                                                Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                                Moderator

                                                  Remember even if you don’t know a writer maybe someone you know does, consider the “Degrees of Separation” theory.

                                                • #95422
                                                  Robert
                                                  Participant

                                                    No offense to anyone else, but Gramma being clear that she is a newer shooter, probably has the best POV in this thread, given that’s more of the target market for those classes.

                                                  • #95423
                                                    Mike
                                                    Participant

                                                      Point #1 people can get square range training local. Courses like Ctt and cp on the other hand are specialized and your the only one I know that teaches that.

                                                    • #95424
                                                      First Sergeant
                                                      Moderator

                                                        I am going to add a few things to this discussion.

                                                        You can also develop a concealed hqndgun CQB night course using handheld flashlights. You can spend a whole day live fire range during day learning light shooting techniques. Not pistol mounted lights. Would you point your pistol at your kids since your only light is on your gun? No, so need to learn shooting one handed using a light in offhand. Which is hard. Waaa. Then go to huts and run CQB at night with lights.

                                                        I do not recommend combining these classes. Learning how to shoot with a handheld light is technique unto itself. Also doing CQB at night with a light is another skill set.

                                                        Night Fire is an option with DCH. I teach the different techniques for using a flashlight and pistol and how to do reloads and malfunction drills while using a flashlight. The reason why it’s an option is that most people wouldn’t take DCH if night fire was mandatory.

                                                        That’s why the night fire part of the class is done after day one of DCH. That way I know that the student knows how to safely run their pistol, execute reloads and reduce malfunctions.

                                                        If you don’t have a standard base line, you will have people show up to that class and don’t have a clue about how to run their pistol. So then the instructor ends up taking time away from the other students to try and fix the issues that student has.

                                                        As for WML, depends on your specific need. Most don’t need a WML. If you understand the pros and cons of one, then you can make the decision. I cover that during night fire. I have one on my pistol. I also carry a hand held. I know damn well that most people that carry concealed don’t carry a flashlight, hell most refuse to even carry a spare magazine.

                                                        DCH was set up as a basic/intermediate class. The students have ranged from a brand new shooter that had less than a magazine through a pistol, competition shooters to someone who has been shooting pistols longer than I have been alive and was an instructor at a school that most of you have heard of. All have stated to me and through reviews that they enjoyed the class and were glad they took it because they learned from it.

                                                        As Max said, CRS was set up as an introduction for people who didn’t have the skills or didn’t think they were ready to take CTT. We had several people ask specifically about a basic rifle class. You asked, we delivered. Same thing happened with DCH.

                                                        Let’s not even talk about transition drills.

                                                        I have had people ask me about advanced pistol classes. The issue with that is that DCH would have to be mandatory to take that class. Most wont do that. Why? They’ll tell you that they took a pistol class somewhere else. How do we know that what you were taught at that class coincides with what we teach? That’s one of the reasons why Max added the Friday to CTT. People were showing up for CRCD and didn’t know how to run their rifles. (Max, correct that if I am wrong.)

                                                        Point #1 people can get square range training local. Courses like Ctt and cp on the other hand are specialized and your the only one I know that teaches that.

                                                        Yeah, they might be able to get square range training local. Doesn’t mean that the class they took teaches them a damn thing about how to run a rifle or pistol. I have had students show up to CRS that took a basic rifle classes other places. Their words, “I learned more in half a day at CTT than I did in both days of the other class I took.” Just because those classes exist, doesn’t mean that the classes are worth a damn.

                                                        YDKWYDK.

                                                        FILO
                                                        Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                        Je ne regrette rien
                                                        In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                                      • #95425
                                                        HiDesertRat
                                                        Participant

                                                          I have done CRS in conjunction with CRCD, CP at MVT in WV. Also CRS in Spokane, and recently CTT and FoF in Idaho. CRS is a great class, instruction top notch. We had 10 participants I believe at CRS/MVT WEST. All participants were enthusiastic and motivated. My guess is not enough exposure to the core community of people that would jump at the chance to have real professional training. That is my conjecture on it. I would love to see DCH in Spokane. There are many people who are concealed carry in this part of the country, but not much in the way of real classes for instruction. helloKitty is spot on about UTM for pistols and night course. I looked into handgun courses here, mostly very square range stuff, or too theoretical and little practical firing of the weapon or one company that wanted to do private one on one training for an ungodly amount of $. No camaraderie or meeting like minded folks, thats doesn’t cut it. As I stated above, not enough exposure to the core community that would want this training. I know you want to bring your philosophy and training to the people, other venues for introduction of this might be advertising in firearm related publications, or with surplus, survival type businesses. The entire mood of the country is shifting and people that I ordinarily dismiss as asleep at the wheel say things that tell me they know something is more than just amiss, and they are getting uneasy and spooked. The veneer of civilization has been pulled back and some are beginning to question what the next step is and they know it is not to listen to the current propaganda.
                                                          They sense something bigger is on the horizon and for once are beginning to understand about having a plan B.

                                                        • #95426
                                                          gramma
                                                          Participant

                                                            Good point about the night class, 1st Sarge.

                                                            Maybe we need to nail down just how the DCH class differs from most square range classes. Why is it different? better?

                                                            I’ll think on that, and see if something jumps up into the ole brain.

                                                          • #95427
                                                            DuaneH
                                                            Participant

                                                              I don’t think MVT is as well known as Max thinks.
                                                              Having travelled the country with my MVT shirt, I got asked at every gun shop “What’s MVT?”

                                                              I was with my mutual support group bros out in Osage Beach Missouri a month ago knocking back shots of Glenlivet and none of them had heard of MVT before or even knew that a class had taken place in the vicinity of Osage Beach.

                                                              So I am thinking you need more advertising.

                                                              How, I dunno. Appleseed got its start from a full page article in Shotgun News. Times have change and not sure that would work.

                                                              Have you ever thought about reaching out to other schools with an invite for their instructors to come train? That runs a risk of theft of intellectual property and all that, but Valor Ridge is in KY and not too far away. Chris Larson of One Shepherd lives in Alexandria, VA now.

                                                              I will tell you what worked in Appleseed more so than any other advertising: Word of Mouth.
                                                              What grew the program was students bringing other students and instructors bringing in students from their own spheres of influence.

                                                              To address your original question:

                                                              1) People do not look to MVT for square range classes. Although we know the quality of the classes they DKWTDK, and why can’t they just get that training from Joe Smo at the local range, right?

                                                              CRS and DCH are both entry level classes. By that I mean that you do not necessarily need pre reqs prior to taking them, even though more advanced students benefit from them as well. (I took RS prior to CTT last year even after having 20 classes under my belt).

                                                              Some people suffer from delusions of competence and won’t take a beginner class (or any class for that matter)

                                                              In this perspective, the target audience will be different. People perceive the other classes to be advanced and for whatever the reason, do not take them.
                                                              Some people are intimidated. Some people have an ego that will get damaged if they fail in front of others

                                                              I would say don’t get rid of them although you may have to cut back on them.

                                                              I personally plan to take DCH at some point.

                                                            • #95428
                                                              Max
                                                              Keymaster

                                                                And Lo! From the East, came TacGun!

                                                                :good:

                                                              • #95429
                                                                Corvette
                                                                Participant

                                                                  Will be going to the Defensive Concealed handgun class this Saturday and Sunday.
                                                                  My situation and my thoughts…
                                                                  I heard about MVT training on WRSA, and I should mention that if I did not read WRSA I would have never heard of MVT.
                                                                  I had been thinking about checking out the MVT training for a while, but it seemed intimidating. But I finally decided to log in, register for a class, spend the money, get the required ammo and mags and other stuff, take the vacation days off work and travel over to West Virginia and check out this MVT training.
                                                                  I decided to take the two day DCH class as I figured it would be the most useful to me (being a concealed pistol license holder and living in a densely populated urban area).
                                                                  I am a member of a shooting club here in Michigan where we have several 25 yard pistol / rifle ranges, but have had no formal instruction outside of the military 40 years ago and what training I took for my CPL class and going to the local shooting ranges.
                                                                  So many people buy a gun, take their required class for a CPL, apply for their CPL, go to the range a few times after and think they’re good to go. Some do ok if something goes down, because the bad guy / bad guys are surprised their intended victim turns out to be armed and they are fortunately not that good in a stand up fair gun fight.
                                                                  We do have people around here who put on tactical shooting training classes in Michigan and my friends thought I was crazy going out of state to WV to take two days of training in this, but what I have seen here looks impressive, so…
                                                                  I have traveled out of state to take two days of martial arts training before (Karate and Modern Arnis), had to bow to everyone who was a higher rank than me (which was everyone), got beat up, learned some lessons (mainly that I had a lot to learn) and the total costs for this are about the same as that was, with less chance of being hit or kicked or thrown down hard and winding up hurting all over with big bruises so show for it all so figured why not give this a try…
                                                                  I am also going to check out the area in West Virginia for possible future relocation, and am also going to meet up with someone I met online who will also be at the training (after a gentle nudge from me).

                                                                • #95430
                                                                  DuaneH
                                                                  Participant

                                                                    And Lo! From the East, came TacGun!

                                                                    :good:

                                                                    Does that mean i am an apostle?

                                                                  • #95431
                                                                    gramma
                                                                    Participant

                                                                      LOL… You guys are silly – but that’s one way the classes are different: we do have FUN, but it’s real clear when it’s all business too.

                                                                      I don’t always get the right words out of my brain, to say what I’m meaning to say. But let me see if these observations help push things closer to a good idea for marketing.

                                                                      – MVT doesn’t just teach & practice drills for the sake of the drills and muscle memory; we learned WHY these skills were important and the application of the basic skills, to potential real-life situations. The usual square range classes focus primarily on whether or not you understand the fundamentals of the skill – and then they move on.

                                                                      – I learned how to tell from my target more of what I need to work on in grip, trigger pull, etc. That encourages me to practice more on my own, because I know to try to correct or pay attention to.

                                                                      – The malfunction drills were the most important info for me. But I’m weird. I was always afraid to deal with a problem – and that’s a hindrance to practice, living alone like I do. I’m confident now that I can deal with it and get back on target.

                                                                      This wasn’t covered at all in my first CCW class or NRA basic pistol.

                                                                      – Drawing from concealed wasn’t covered either, and there was no discussion or practice of shooting from cover. Shooting and moving wasn’t even on the radar and the little bit we did in class was a great lesson in how many things have to be settled internally – so they’re automatic – before shooting while moving is even possible.

                                                                      – Shooting one-handed, weak hand, drawing with the weak hand… these things were also “new material” for me. My previous classes included people who didn’t know how their guns operated or how to load them. There was no time to teach or practice these other skills.

                                                                      – Those other classes were max 4 hrs long. 1/2 was classroom; 1/2 was shooting. Two 8 hr days makes a big difference in what a person retains after the class. And 1st Sarge was right: after 2 days, I barely took notice of the holster anymore, I was already used to it.

                                                                      So, for me – it was just the right step from what little I knew, to adding a chunk of things to work on – so that I can safely move on to the next level after a bit. I knew I didn’t know very much. And I knew strange things that didn’t matter – and didn’t know the stuff that does. And the class helped me know which was which – and what to work on.

                                                                      So overall, I’d describe the class as a transition class, that teaches tactical applications of the concealed handgun. It puts basic pistol skills to work, in practice designed to be applied in realistic self-defense scenarios.

                                                                      Or something like that.

                                                                    • #95432
                                                                      wheelsee
                                                                      Participant

                                                                        @gramma

                                                                        :good:

                                                                        Excellent observations, including from other classes. As an NRA instructor, I always tell the students this is a “basic” class…..we give MVT information to our students for those interested….which brings up ego – I’ve never viewed other instructors as “competition” in the sense of closely guarded secrets. If someone needs something I can’t provide (skill set or timing), I refer them to someone who can.

                                                                      • #95433
                                                                        Corvette
                                                                        Participant

                                                                          @gramma
                                                                          Thank you for your detailed description.
                                                                          Am getting started for today and will spend all day getting ready for this class and driving out there tomorrow.
                                                                          It’s a lot to get ready for and quite a bit outside my comfort zone.
                                                                          Am really putting myself out there making this trip, but have the mindset that I have heard enough good stuff about the place, the people and the courses that it will all be worth it and to enjoy the adventure, whatever happens.

                                                                        • #95434
                                                                          gramma
                                                                          Participant

                                                                            I had trepidations too Wendy – I’m a 60 yr old, out of shape (but not decrepit yet) woman with no background whatsoever in this kind of thing. My family hunted, though and I was introduced to shooting as a kid… and then wasn’t interested most of my life.

                                                                            It was FINE; I worried about stuff I didn’t need to. I had a great time and learned so much and even got my jeep nice & muddy. :-)

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