CQB Training

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    • #95952
      Corvette
      Participant

        I know there are plans to offer CQB training at MVT in the future but till then I wondered if there are any recommendations for trainers? There are several whose TTPs we have been cautioned against here on the forum and on the blog from time to time. I would think there has got to be somebody out there who provides quality, relevant training on this subject.

      • #95953
        Max
        Keymaster

          Everyone wants to shortcut to CQB, because it’s ‘the cool stuff.’

          Particularly in light of my recent article on Tactical Clearance: An Alternative CQB Technique, and the issues with CQB in general, I don’t recommend anyone.

          What I recommend is that people dial in the basics before they think about room clearing. You should consider Combat Rifle and Combat Team Tactics.

          “But Max, there are trees at your training site, all I need is urban training”….yawn. Even if that were true, basics are basics. Fire and movement in the trees works the same behind parked cars.

          Once you have dialed down the basics, work on additional skills like room entry and clearance. In fact, before that, work on PT and basic weapon handling. A great way to get yourself up to speed would be to work towards the MVT Rifleman Challenge. Not only will that mean you need to get fit, which will help your survival, but we will be teaching workable room entry and clearance drills as part of the curriculum on the challenge weekend.

        • #95954
          Corvette
          Participant

            I’d say wait until MVT offers the training. At least then you know you’ll get the right training the right way and understand WHY it’s correct.

            Past that take an honest inventory and see where you’re at. Combat Rifle will give you all the mechanics you need to perform well at CTT or whatever Max decides to call CQB. I like FISH AND CHIPS my self….

          • #95955
            Corvette
            Participant

              To answer your question I’m sure SOMEONE teaches CQB well and would be worthwhile I just cannot for the life of me imagine who and for that matter who would teach civilians. I just don’t know. Sorry.

            • #95956
              Corvette
              Participant

                “But Max, there are trees at your training site, all I need is urban training”….yawn. Even if that were true, basics are basics. Fire and movement in the trees works the same behind parked cars.

                There are less trees now, thanks, in part, to me. ;-) I’m the tree guy that climbed up to get the widow makers out of the sugar maple by the square range. You know me Max. Anyway, just wondered what you guys thought. I’m trying to decide what my next step in training should be. I could do the Rifleman Challenge next or do CP again with a few buddies. (want to do that recon patrol right this time :wacko: ) Already planning to do the H2H class. Of course I’d also like to bring my wife for CR and do C2G too. Wish I could do them all. If I had my way and the money I’d be doing one a month. Reality is I’ve got to pick.

                Edit: I meant to say CP above, not CTT

              • #95957
                Thomas
                Participant

                  @Bearcreek, may I recommend that if you have not already done so, you master the fundamental infantry tasks and steer clear of CQB. If you simply want to be part of a stack and burn ammunition at a high round count class, go for it. But that is not what Max is advocating and that is only a very small piece of urban combat and not done that particular way in high intensity urban combat.

                  CQB is a part of urban warfare but, for me, is a last resort. I personally want to avoid urban warfare until I have no choice but to engage. Failing to understand MOUT and all that goes into preparation of the urban battle-space makes learning room clearing irrelevant unless and until one gets to that specific point in urban offensive operations. Personally, I will rubble the building before sending infantry in to clear it. It is much preferable to set fire to the building and shoot the enemy as they come out or to bring the building down on the enemy.

                  You may have noticed that Max is trying mightily to avoid teaching CQB. Like other true professional Infantry Leaders, he wants to avoid room clearing. CQB as it is being discussed is high intensity warfare and is likely attacking an urban defense in depth. Von Paulus and the German Sixth Army had some difficulty with that type of warfare.

                  What is taught in the market place currently is SWAT entry and not urban combat. The two have the phrase “enter a room” in common and it kind of ends there. American CQB rules are the basis for the instruction and are not//not what one would use in urban combat.

                  I personally would not pay to attend a course like that any more than I would pay for a math class that teaches 16(25)=ketchup.

                  I don’t mean to preach and apologize if I have wasted your time with this long post.

                • #95958
                  Corvette
                  Participant

                    @Bearcreek, may I recommend that if you have not already done so, you master the fundamental infantry tasks and steer clear of CQB. If you simply want to be part of a stack and burn ammunition at a high round count class, go for it.

                    Been there, done that. I’ve been to a couple of SWAT type training schools and I agree that there is only limited usefulness to us there. I do think there is some value to them even if only just understanding how a SWAT team operates. As I mentioned in my previous post, I’m deciding on the next step in my training progression. I’ve been to MVT’s CTT twice and CP once. I’d like to do both again but I’ve got to prioritize resources. It’s challenging sometimes figuring out what route to take to get the most for my training dollar. Do I do the Rifleman Challenge or CP again? Do I do C2G or H2H? Do I do some of the Mason Dixon classes? What would be more valuable for me? Can’t afford to do it all, at least not in the same year.

                  • #95959
                    Thomas
                    Participant

                      Prioritize your training course plan by assessing which skills you want to improve. As you learn new skills, you still need to maintain your current skills, so you will need a plan for that as well.

                    • #95960
                      Max
                      Keymaster

                        MVT Rifleman Challenge: you will learn more than you think.
                        I’m not sure the audience is fully appreciating the learning and instructional value of the Challenge.
                        If you can, also do H2H or one of the CR/C2G.
                        What Mason Dixon classes are you referring to?

                      • #95961
                        Corvette
                        Participant

                          I agree. I must admit that for a while I did not really see myself doing the Challenge simply because of affordability issues. I thought that I’d be better off putting the money toward another training class rather than just getting tested. (The test itself isn’t an issue. I have no doubts about being able to pass, at least the PT part). As plans for it have developed and I’ve read more about it however I see that there is much training value there, not just testing.
                          I didn’t have a specific class at Mason Dixon in mind. JC offers a number of them that interest me. Of course, portions of some of them would simply be a review of my training at MVT. Others present material that would be new to me. We’ll see. I’m planning to do the H2H class and we’ll see what finances (and the boss/wife ;-) ) allow from there. Maybe even do both the Challenge and another CP if we get some big storms and a bunch of trees goes down. :yes:

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