CQB / Hand-to-Hand

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    • #95878
      Corvette
      Participant

        Any talk of doing some CQB Hand-to-Hand combat training? Knife fighting, disarming your assailant, hand-to-hand fighting and methods of crippling your assailant, etc? Perhaps throw in some CQ handgun tactics….This would be helpful given the situation of being jumped in the street and/or grabbed by someone wanting to behead you….

      • #95879
        jwoop66
        Participant

          Go find an MMA or Krav Maga gym in your area. Both will get you in great shape and give you a bunch of training in basic fighting and grappling. It will also help immensely(?) at MVT for running up those hills.

        • #95880
          Harris
          Participant

            Krav Maga classes will help not only in real world self defense but physical conditioning.

          • #95881
            Max
            Keymaster

              Krav is pretty good and most likely the easiest answer. Very practical with a lot of aggression and very little fluff. Not a lot of butterfly kicks in that discipline lol.

            • #95882
              Corvette
              Participant

                Krav Maga is a good system. I’m a fan of Systema Spetsnaz.

                SYSTEMA SPETSNAZ – RUSSIAN MARTIAL ART

              • #95883
                Corvette
                Participant

                  I choose stuff I can do for real against resisting opponents as much as possible. As a 5’11” middleweight I’m suited for karate and Thaiboxing.

                  Both of those systems ( yeah I know there’s 3 dozen kinds of karate ) .. Both of them are often not karate or Muay Thai : they’re cardio fitness classes loosely based on them. If people don’t try to actually physically knock you on your ass I don’t want to play.

                  I say this because of the Krav Maga … . I know every teacher is different , and every one is a badass. But I am under the impression their is no sparring/fighting/competition in Krav Maga. Please correct me if I’m wrong. … I guess one could still learn without it
                  .
                  It’s just that I’ve yet to meet a technique more convincing than a straight right punch to my face to make me a believer. And the flip side , knowing from actual experience that you can actually fight through a broken nose , hand or rib and prevail.

                  Max posted a short vid of some very serious young Paras ” Milling.”
                  And I fucking loved the idea. I’m training a few friends in my back yard dirt patch dojo / dog pen … Give me a few weeks and I’ll post a video of them and I “milling.” Its fucking genius.

                • #95884
                  jwoop66
                  Participant

                    If you take karate and spar in a realistic fashion, your probably in a unique program from what I’ve seen. I took Karate years ago – for a few years. I even attended a few tournaments. There was no realistic sparring or contact. With Krav you can spar the basics: boxing, kicking and grappling, but you have to set rules against doing things that would cause serious injury. (At least in Krav, you are hitting, kicking and rolling, I didn’t get that in the karate I took.) So sparring that way makes it kickboxing or the same as cagefighting if you want to take it to the extreme. You cant practice throat punching or kicking in the nuts or eye gouging in a sparring situation. Kickboxing or Muay Thai are probably the best all-around disciplines to be ready to fight “in the street”, but they are competitive, same as boxing. If you live by the rules, you die by the rules. Don’t ever forget all the nasty, dirty, devious shit you can do to another person if need be.

                    The Milling video Max posted shows one of the most important things for people to develop regardless of what martial art or combat system they train in; and that is AGGRESSION. Know how to kick, how to punch, how to wrestle a bit, but most of all -Know how to DO IT WITH EXTREME AGGRESSION if you need to use it to defend yourself. Don’t ever expect violence to be neat and pretty either. You can train moves and techniques, but when real violence happens, its messy and ugly. There is a video of the end of a MMA fight out there where you see them fighting with good form like pro’s, but at the end of the fight, the two teams(fighters,trainers, support, etc) get pissed and get in to a real brawl. Goes from fighters pacing themselves and fighting like pro’s to two groups (including pro’s) going berserk on each other. Ugly as hell.

                    I have to go take care of mundane things like groceries right now, but will look for video and post it later.

                  • #95885
                    Max
                    Keymaster

                      Milling: not boxing but pretty reminiscent of Brit pub brawling.

                      The idea is to test controlled aggression and courage over 1 minute. Time is stopped if the fight is paused.

                      It used to be without headgear but they are struggling to keep it going despite the health and safety nazis.

                      It is straight punching to each other’s heads. Defense is not allowed, just offense from each soldier. You have to keep your head up and keep fighting. It is psychologically reminiscent of being in a firefight.

                      P Company test week used to put milling the third and last event on a Friday, to allow the weekend to recover from concussion, before resuming with endurance events Monday morning.

                    • #95886
                      Corvette
                      Participant

                        At 54 years old, standing there letting someone punch me in the face is not exactly my idea of good training. I did that stuff when I was young, I know how to utilize aggression. If you want to have “fight club” in your backyard, go right ahead, but I’ll skip that fun, thanks.

                      • #95887
                        Max
                        Keymaster

                          I often feel that comments are misconstrued, depending on the perspective of the reader, particularly when they are brief and tapped out on a phone.

                          Nowhere have I advocated milling as something that anyone here should do as part of a training program. It is supervised by medics and done as part of both training and selection for UK airborne forces.

                          Don’t do this at home!

                          :unsure:

                        • #95888
                          Corvette
                          Participant

                            I was referring to Alex up above, who mentioned fighting in the backyard. I know you weren’t advocating milling, Max.

                            I have a friend who is actually part of a group who does this sort of thing, the “Wolves of Vinland.” I think they are nuts. Look them up on google. Some of us might run up against them SHTF.

                          • #95889
                            wheelsee
                            Participant

                              Also look at American Combatives, based off WWII, brought together by John Kary. We don’t “spar” since the emphasis is on maximum damage and getting out. “Sparring” also develops a focus on the 1 attacker leaving you vulnerable to “his buddies”…….just my .02

                            • #95890
                              Max
                              Keymaster

                                I train combatives right now and it’s very useful for self-defense. I used to train Muay Thai kick boxing back in the 90s, before the public even heard of it, did some Hung Gar Chinese Kung fu and even Ninjutsu. Combatives is more my style. Back then you were trying to adapt other traditional systems to a self-defense situation, rather than build up something designed to be self-defense.

                                I’ve come to learn that there is no STYLE. There is only the individual. There is only Hard work and training that you put into it. whether you train in Krav Maga or Kung Fu the most important is how you trained under stress and how you handle yourself under said stress.

                                If you train with no stress and just a bag, you’ll be less prepared than somebody who trains under stress and no punching bag.

                                This is the same for us here with boom sticks. Square range vs actual training….who do you think wins?

                                Manifold

                                p.s. there was a point to this post. :)
                                What I am saying is don’t get hung up on which “style” is best. Find one that suites your intended environment and situation and train hard in it. Believe me, when you meet the average guy that hasn’t trained a single second in his life, you’ll be able to handle him/her.

                              • #95891
                                Corvette
                                Participant

                                  At 54 years old, standing there letting someone punch me in the face is not exactly my idea of good training. I did that stuff when I was young, I know how to utilize aggression. If you want to have “fight club” in your backyard, go right ahead, but I’ll skip that fun, thanks.

                                  You’re welcome.

                                  I don’t want anyone to think I advocate this the general population either. ” Fight Club” Was a pretty movie , too. But I realize it was used above to infer dangerous over enthusiastic poor training.
                                  In 1981 or 2 I gathered up a collection of random sports safety gear and attempted to fight full contact with a training partner. And it sucked a lot , and we quit pretty early that day.

                                  20 years later , I was a 3rd Dan in The World Tae Kwon Do Federation , and the AIMAA ( different TKD group ) , 1st Dan in Tang Soo Do , competent western Boxer , 4 years of Muay Thai training , and reasonably fluent in kodokan Judo. I’d been a paid teacher , and a broke dojo owner.

                                  I’m utterly burnt out on formal training , have little faith in the general populations ability to train , even when they know they ought to , and disgusted with the nonsense , lies and watering down of standards.

                                  My back yard “fight club ” is me and some other rational adults – gun people , who want to learn about unarmed self defense. It’s been very interesting for me to teach them what I think is important without getting sideways in less important directions.

                                  The relevance to the above discussion comes in here : if you learn only drills with cooperating partners you’re rehearsing and pretending but you’re not fighting ( which was my mistaken impression of Krav ) But if you ” fight ” with safety gear and rules you’re playing a game ( boxing and Muay Thai ). If you just beat the shit out of each other you’re … Probably unwell in the head or lying.

                                  Now , Milling , as a learning experience :
                                  1/ I don’t know any Para’s. I don’t know what Max went though to get to be him. I don’t know what those young men do today. That’s another universe , far from mine.

                                  2/ I am working with some people I know well , bringing them along over several months so far ( actually inspired to get off our asses from reading this forum and Max’s admonishment for more PT ).and have been spending a lot of thought on what to do about the equivalent to “live fire ” drills re : Hand to Hand. If I start them on sparring or ring fighting – semi contact or full contact – then we go down the road of Ring Science ( theory of winning whatever game we play ) and I have come to believe that is very different from Self Defense.

                                  But : if we don’t invest a bit of discomfort into it then it’s all theory or aerobics really. Which is why I think ” milling” has its place.

                                  A high quality custom formed mouth guard costs lest than ten bucks. My training partners and I all own 14 oz boxing gloves. And I , with 30 years of experience think my friends are ready to find out what it takes to keep going after they’re eyes are watering , or God forbid their noses bleed a bit.

                                  Oh , let’s not forget the fun part either. Anyone who’s ever fought in a ring , or trained with boxing gloves knows the God awful huge fucking amount of work it is to even attempt to throw 60 seconds of head level straight punches. You won’t see it in pro boxing because it’s too tiring to think straight after the first two dozen punches.

                                  So yeah. Don’t try to do this at home.

                                • #95892
                                  Corvette
                                  Participant

                                    I trained in Kenpo and Pai Lum Kung Fu in the 70s and early 80s. we didn’t have safety gear back then. Guys occasionally got hurt. I’ve had broken and dislocated fingers, bloody noses, black eyes, loose teeth and had the wind knocked out of me while sparring. :wacko:

                                    The best method of fighting is avoiding the fight in the first place.

                                    If the fight is unavoidable, you use every means at your disposal to win, go for the eyes, throat, kneecaps and other vulnerable areas. Bite if you have to.

                                  • #95893
                                    Max
                                    Keymaster

                                      My wife and I have been training in Krav Maga and Muay Thai for 5 months. Our cardio and overall fitness has improved dramatically. For Krav, loud music and sparring is done. Closing your eyes and waiting for someone to randomly choke you with the loud music blaring is pretty close to simulating the real deal in my opinion. My wife had to use her training after only a few weeks to stop a sex trafficker from abducting a teenager in a third world country. if you put in the time and take it seriously, it can definitely save your life. Highly recommend Krav taken from someone not afraid to teach you how to really hurt someone when necessary in high stress situations.

                                    • #95894
                                      Max
                                      Keymaster

                                        When I watched that milling video I was actually quite impressed. We ALL have a natural tendency to look away, look down, flinch etc. Its a good way to force yourself to brave the punches, keep your head up and make the other guy keep his head down. That is why Max said its like a firefight. Fire superiority only happens when the guy is BRAVE enough to stick his head out to get hit so he can deliver fire to keep the enemy head down.

                                        This teaches you that. Yes the guys were flailing. Real Fighting is not like the dojo or movies, its never clean and movie like. Its messy, bloody and sweaty.

                                        When I saw it I understood what that video meant and I really wanted to train harder.

                                        If you watch that video. The guy that tries to put his head down and cover, usually loses the fight.

                                        Fire superiority.

                                      • #95895
                                        Roadkill
                                        Participant

                                          I read where an English officer was being stationed with some Gurkhas. He went up to the head man and told him he was excited about being stationed together because it would give him a chance to learn the intricacies of the kukri. You know, the flow drills and all the moves. The ghurka said I can teach you all I know in five minutes right here. The officer looked at him kind of questioning. The ghurka said hold the knife over your head, scream while you attack and chop down. That’s it for my system. Kind of the same for fighting. Eyes throat and groin. Attack be vicious and prevail.

                                        • #95896
                                          Corvette
                                          Participant

                                            I’ve had to go hands on a couple times downrange it’s not something I enjoyed or would want to do again. Afghans stink.

                                            I’m thankful as an American my bones don’t snap as easily as the poor nutrition in the Middle East allows.

                                            I trust that my Notoros NVG mount and helmet will floor anyone that takes a head butt.

                                            The M4 stock is not good for buttstroking but the muzzle thump is pretty effective. Gloves are great for punching not so great for grabbing.

                                            They will always reach for your weapon. Always.

                                            The guy that wins is the guys who’s friends show up first.

                                          • #95897
                                            Roadkill
                                            Participant

                                              Aaron, that’s a fact. A fight is never one on one. Hope your friends show up first, and never ever go to the ground. If you find yourself there, do all you can to not stay. If your style is on the ground, your head looks too much like a soccer ball.

                                            • #95898
                                              Max
                                              Keymaster

                                                Just did a class with mosby that was full contact with Sims guns. If you’ve never done it, you need to. I posted an aar over on his site. Hope its cool with max that I mentioned it here.

                                              • #95899
                                                Max
                                                Keymaster

                                                  Many years ago I studied different karate styles and did some tournament prep. It was (theoretically) light contact with pads which could certainly become ‘not so light’ fairly quickly. I learned that once I got tagged I was FAR more aggressive. Needed to get hit once to then go totally psycho on the other guy.

                                                  60 sec of steady punching is extremely difficult. We used to do 1 min bursts on a heavy bag and that destroys your arms/shoulders. Its funny but I grew up in a time that fighting was something that boys ‘just did’, some of us more than others. Now days it is politically incorrect and grounds for removal from ones home or school. What has happened?! Fewer ‘legit’ fights with kids, now we see “knockout game” crap.

                                                  Some years ago while consulting in prisons I observed some brawls and realized that young people don’t know how to fight like we did. Some guy who had fast hands and knew how to jab could keep people off him fairly easily…at least until they came to ‘stick’ him later. Screwed-up world!

                                                • #95900
                                                  Gladius
                                                  Participant

                                                    This opinion is from a 60 man with over 45 years in the combative arts who thru the help MVT will be continuing his training ( I.e. The modern battle rifle and handgun are to the soldier today what a sword was to samurai in the past. I won’t bore you with the litany of schools,belts certificates etc unless you really want to hear it.

                                                    If had the time to train a person,not just men but women as well I would start with the following:

                                                    1) at least 6 months from at least brown belt in a bjj school. The belt rank helps solve the quality control issue. Get your blue belt rating if you. Go 3 times per week if possible and you should get at least 3 months in full speed full power controlled grappling. This gives your grappling base.

                                                    2) 6 months boxing (with good head gear so don’t end up the end of all the Rocky movies)this builds your striking base

                                                    3)at least 6 months Krav Maga. They have some the best weapons disarms.focus on those, this gives your hand to weapon base

                                                    4) get PT going , best here are running, rowing and kettle bells if you know how to use them properly

                                                    Other options include Muay Thai,judo, collegiate and/Greco roman wrestling, sambo,

                                                    Also look at systems based on ww2 combatives for extra tricks.

                                                    Don’t buy into the we don’t do full contact/sport bullshit, virtually any system be safely sparred (with proper gear and common sense rules) warning: ;-) getting on my high horse here. You don’t learn to ride a horse by sitting in a saddle draped over a barrel, you get on and ride, then trot,the gallop, the full run and maybe even some jumping. You ride.Same for fighting H2H you start slow but then you learn to fight by fighting! You go past kata,one step sparring, drills and go FIGHT!

                                                    Train hard, train safely, and above all have fun and be a good sport,we all get bruises,cuts, bloody and broken noses,etc

                                                    Good luck and best wishes on your journey! :bye:

                                                  • #95901
                                                    Corvette
                                                    Participant

                                                      Thanks for the suggestions; i’d like to do some kind of krav maga martial arts; will look into that.

                                                      I was also asking this question with regards to an MVT CQB class focused on some of the above discussed topics. Seems pretty relevant to what we are all training for…

                                                      Max?

                                                    • #95902
                                                      Corvette
                                                      Participant

                                                        As an instructor it’s important to remember that training never stops. I learn something new with each class I teach and am constantly try to get better at old and new techniques. If you see me fumble there’s a reason for it!

                                                        I’m looking forward to taking one of Craig Douglas’s courses very soon myself. I loved kickboxing and the Army combatives program as well as some of the other training I’ve had. I have no illusions that this will be much worse. That’s good though.

                                                        Whats the interest level in an MVT H2H class?

                                                      • #95903
                                                        Corvette
                                                        Participant

                                                          I think an H2H course would be REALLY great; kind of a springboard for those of us not yet “into” H2H type training but want / need to be.

                                                        • #95904
                                                          Baldrick
                                                          Participant

                                                            Wife and I took Krav 3x weekly for about six months. Basic and practical, and a decent workout.

                                                          • #95905

                                                            I have a friend who is actually part of a group who does this sort of thing, the “Wolves of Vinland.” I think they are nuts. Look them up on google. Some of us might run up against them SHTF.

                                                            I am a member of the Wolves of Vinland. We use safety equipment and incorporate sparring into the prospecting process so as to weed out vaginas like yourself. Your age excuse is invalid as well. There are several older members in their 50’s that perform adequately because they expend the effort to stay in shape.

                                                            Also if you think freedom loving pagans who designed their entire tribe around brotherhood, fitness, family values, traditional culture, and warrior skills are people you’re going to “run up against” during SHTF, you’re an idiot and a narrow minded bigot.

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