British Infantry Belt Kit: Review JayJays Gen 4 Web Gear

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    • #125585
      Max
      Keymaster

        This is a instructional session on the applicability and use of the British Army belt kit (webbing), focusing specifically on a review of the JayJays Gen 4 web gear, in this case the commanders version.

        https://www.jayjaysbrecon.co.uk/

        Gen IV Commanders Description:

        The Gen IV Commanders is a totally flexible belt kit system where the pouches are permanently fixed to the pad.
        For 20 years JayJays has been the UK market leader in permanently fixed belt kit systems and since the first concept was designed our belt kit has been constantly developed. Subtle design changes and features over the years have made this the preferred belt kit of the British Soldier.
        Fixed pouches allow us to cater for users with a small waist size. Due to clever design we are able keep the same number of pouches required and sew them to different length pads, making the belt kit a perfect fit for the user.
        The design of the Gen IV reduces bounce of the belt kit. When all the pouches are full they stabilise against each other making a solid form that does not bounce or rock. This combined with the spacer pad ensures an ergonomic comfortable fit.
        The latest version of the Gen IV comprises of all polymer hardware making it rust resistant in jungle environments. The addition of the polymer hardware also reduces overall weight without compromising strength.
        Spacetec spacer fabric is used for padding to allow it to be as breathable as possible but still very flexible so it hugs the body.


        This series of instructional videos illustrate tactical concepts described in the Tactical Manual: Small Unit Tactics (link below) available on Amazon or via any reputable book retailer.

        MVT Tactical Manual

        Max Velocity Tactical (MVT) has established a reputation on the leading edge of tactical live fire and force on force training. At MVT we are dedicated to developing and training tactical excellence at the individual and team level.

        Max Velocity Tactical operates the Velocity Training Center (VTC) tactical and leadership training facility near to Romney, West Virginia, where we provide training for US Special Operations Forces and Responsible Citizens.

        Max Velocity Tactical classes utilize professional quality combat marksmanship, tactical and leadership training, in order to develop situational awareness, teamwork, leadership, decision making and communication.

      • #125607
        RobRoy
        Participant

          I was going to ask about the “bounce” that afflicts my kits. The NZ Army uses Brit kit as well, at the SNAFU blog spot he posted some Marine recon propaganda video of them training with the NZ and they even mention their sustainment resupply schedule as relates to carry kit.

        • #125608
          DiznNC
          Participant

            Right on Max. This is awesome stuff, on several levels. First off, revisiting the belt kit concept, and secondly a good look at Jay Jay’s kit. And last but not least the concept of having several LBE options, based on your mission requirements.

            There have been some amazing advances in load bearing equipment since the G-WOT kicked off, however, some times we lose sight of time-tested equipment, perhaps because it’s not optimized for the type of fighting being conducted, or perhaps because the powers that be decided to go off in another direction. Any way, the Brit belt kit, PLCE, belt order, whatever you want to call it, has been around for awhile. The idea being to have a fighting and sustainment load out, which can last at least 24 hours. It’s a much more self-sufficient concept, than relying on other re-supply, which we have come to take for granted, but in some circumstances, we may not have readily available. So within that context of having a more austere environment, where you might be doing woodland patrol, and there are no vehicles or shelters with re-supply available, then carrying a bit more kit on you becomes a very good idea. You might be thinking, but Diz, didn’t we have something similar, like our own LBE? Well yes, but there are some important differences. Typically the Brit Light Infantryman would carry much more sustainment gear on the belt line. And it actually integrated with his rucksack, instead of fighting with it. More on that later.

            Jay Jays is some very good kit. The materials he uses and the construction techniques are first class, all the way. I have spent years trying to build something better, and basically came back around to his kit. He is one of the top builders of belt kit in the UK, and certainly has the best website which makes it easy for us over here to get some. Yes it is expensive. But it is that good. I have spent years experimenting with belt kit designs. I have circled back to the basic lay out, as seen in Jay Jays kit, simply for one reason: it works.

            The thing I like about Max is that he isn’t dogmatic about what he is teaching; it evolves over time, as he teaches and trains. When it comes to LBE, he presents different load outs, for different missions, and let’s the student decide. Case in point, the fight light concept, which applies in many situations, has been thoroughly documented here. But he is not afraid to explore alternatives, which include different LBE, for different missions. Case in point, the light infantry belt kit, and the why and how that might be used.

          • #125609
            DiznNC
            Participant

              The bounce can be handled in different ways. The classic infantry solution was to bungee them all together. This time-tested technique still works.

              Another way is to go with an 8″ “hippo” or molle belt. The increased support of the wider belt, does much the same thing, to tie everything together.

              And finally, a custom, sewn in kit, like you see here, on an 8″ base, really helps take the bounce out.

              But, in the end, this design does lower the CG of all the pouches, and yeah it will tend to bounce a bit more, than say “mid-ride” pouches. I think it’s a good trade-off for how it integrates with the rucksack. All things being considered, still the best system I’ve ever found, warts n all.

            • #125611
              wheelsee
              Participant

                Excellent!!

                Highlights differences in culture and thought-processes.

                Caveat – I was never military, only SWAT (early 90s). We carried handguns as a primary and as backup. Our long guns included shotguns (for those on perimeter) and MP5s (for those on entry). We used our long guns for initial work, then slung for the secondary.

                From my perspective, its all about training and mission. If I understand the British concept, the primary weapon is the rifle (why Max talks about carrying spare parts ??).

              • #125622
                hellokitty
                Participant

                  @Max
                  Question
                  How snug are you wearing the belt?
                  How snug is the yoke?
                  Do you wear it like a pack? Snug on hips and loose shoulder straps?
                  Thanks

                  HEAT 1(CTT) X 3
                  HEAT 2 (CP) X1
                  FOF X3
                  OPFOR X2
                  CLC X2
                  RIFLEMAN

                • #125637
                  Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                  Moderator

                    I really like those zippered compartments on the patrol yoke.

                    As Max points out, what is your mission?

                    What you are actually doing should drive your gear selection. Not the latest fad or what you just saw some tactifools are using.

                    One of the reasons I selected a low profile suspender equipped belt even for the fight light concept is the versatility it provides, particularly in hot humid weather.

                    Want to run belt lose for a layup or increased ventlation? No problem.

                    Run it firm to distribute belt/pack weight to hips? Again it’s easily done.

                    I can even unbuckle belt for periods of reduced threat for comfort, yet gear is right where I need it.

                    Finally just because you have a gazillion pouches doesn’t mean they must be filled to capacity. ;-)

                  • #125649
                    Max
                    Keymaster

                      @Max
                      Question
                      How snug are you wearing the belt?
                      How snug is the yoke?
                      Do you wear it like a pack? Snug on hips and loose shoulder straps?
                      Thanks

                      Not sure I really understand this one. I’ve just got the belt done up as per any battle belt, as with the two front straps on the patrol yoke. Would prob need to let the side adjusters out for colder weather and more layers. The things just sits really well.

                    • #125661
                      arealcorker
                      Participant

                        Is the yoke big enough to wear a coat under it or over it?

                      • #125711
                        Max
                        Keymaster

                          Is the yoke big enough to wear a coat under it or over it?

                          You can adjust the patrol yoke to desired size, side expanders and also shoulder adjustment. Also with the other yokes they do.

                        • #125712
                          Max
                          Keymaster

                            Just out of interest, if anyone buys anything from JayJays, let me know. I’m not on any sort of money deal with them, I wanted a belt kit and got one free for the review. I’m simply interested if I generate any interest in the US for proper belt kit.

                            • #125742
                              hellokitty
                              Participant

                                I ordered one. I have been toying with the idea and you posted this video. Perfect timing.

                                HEAT 1(CTT) X 3
                                HEAT 2 (CP) X1
                                FOF X3
                                OPFOR X2
                                CLC X2
                                RIFLEMAN

                            • #125718
                              billyd
                              Participant

                                I am interested in purchasing the kit. Also looking at adding a dump pouch. Being a left-sided shooter, I’m wondering if the mag pouches need to be reversed or if the kit is good for ambidextrous usage.

                                • #125721
                                  Max
                                  Keymaster

                                    I am interested in purchasing the kit. Also looking at adding a dump pouch. Being a left-sided shooter, I’m wondering if the mag pouches need to be reversed or if the kit is good for ambidextrous usage.

                                    Now, that is a good question. You can get the kit with mag pouches on both sides, vive commanders pouch right side. You will have to ask JayJays if they will do a rig with pouches reversed. The mag pouches really need to be on your support side. The Brit SA80 is only fired right handed, so I am not sure what experience they will have with reversing pouches. Given it is all hand sewn, maybe it won’t be an issue. They advertise dump pouches on the website.

                                    It’s really a phone call to Brecon kind of deal.

                                • #125864
                                  DiznNC
                                  Participant

                                    I’m glad to see interest in Brit belt kit, and also Jay Jays. Be sure and let him know you heard about it at MVT.

                                    As far as how tight, some folks would wear the US issue LCE belt loose on the hips and let it ride up and down on the shoulder straps as required. The Brit technique is to use a “Roll Pin Buckle” or adjustable buckle on the belt, so it can be snugged up to the hips. So to answer your question, the Brit technique is to actually wear the belt snugged up to the hips, especially when worn in conjunction with a rucksack. Although you can do any damn thing you want; the belt can still be “floated” if necessary. This is a viable technique for hot weather. Or for wear with winter layers.

                                    With this in mind, you could vary the tension on the belt, to support more load with the std. yoke or the patrol harness like Max has. Depends on whether you are running a ruck (and what size). You can put more weight on the waist, or the shoulders by adjusting all this stuff.

                                    But in general, I cinch the waist belt snug, unlike the USGI belt which was usually worn a little looser.

                                    The yoke is normally worn over the outer layers, so it needs to be adjustable.

                                    For lefties, no worries, Jay Jay’s has all sorts of models, including complete molle rigs, where you can rig up the pouches any way you like. One version just has the sustainments sewn on, and molle for the mag pouch areas, so you could rig that up for a lefty. Also he has models with 2 x 3-mag pouches on both sides, so no worries there. He would probably do a sewn down version of it, left hand, if you asked.

                                    When ordering, be advised that the hip pad on a Brit system goes from hip point, to hip point; it does not wrap all the way around like US models. So make sure and measure yourself, from hip point, to hip point, to get the hip pad right. If you get it too big, and it wraps around past your hip points, you’re defeating the purpose of the design. You should be able to take a knee (not to mention prone out), without the pad getting in the way.

                                    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 3 days ago by  DiznNC.
                                    • #125868
                                      Max
                                      Keymaster

                                        I am in touch with JayJays and they say they will custom make leftie kit if you get in touch with them. That applies to sewn kit. As Diz says, Molle kit do what you want.

                                        A lot of kit in the Paras depends on a vague concept called ‘ally.’ Ally kits is kit that is supremely tactically functional, but also looks good. Such as scrimming your helmet the right way etc. A good set of belt kit is not only functional, but looks good too.

                                        Now, sad to say, this is a concept usually lost in both craphats and yanks. Basically, the old septics have no idea what they were doing with the old ALICE webbing. I am sure 1SG will disagree, and I will give that to him, not only because he was LRS, but also he has a lot of experience with European militaries.

                                        We would laugh to see ALICE gear hanging of guys like a bag of shit. Totally impractical for tabbing. Craphats would have shit webbing and have it all up around the navel.

                                        Webbing should be snug but down around the hips. If you were being truly ridiculous for a fashiin statement, likely because you were in Support Company (mainly mortars) you would hang that shit right down there. However, letting it down on the yoke to be too low on the hips was usually an ally fashion statement based on having to hump in heavy carry support weapons gear. So let the webbing ride lower to accomodate the bergan and the mortar / anti-tank / machine gun gear you had on your back.

                                        So, if you buy decent belt kit, don’t let me down at class by looking like a bag of shit!

                                        • #125869
                                          Max
                                          Keymaster

                                            As an add on to that, I have seen a couple of photos of Vietnam SOG guys with ALICE webbing with pouches on the front of their body. By which I mean belt pouches forward of the hips. This is a huge no-no with belt kit. However, I will give it to them not only because they had massive testicles, but also because they likely adapted to the environment and they probably mostly took cover in the jungle by taking up a rice-paddy squat. Thick vegetation etc.

                                            Or, the photo was of a POG SOG guy and he quickly adapted his shit?

                                      • #125873
                                        Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                        Moderator

                                          I’ll add an observation to Max’s SOG comment regarding their belt setups.

                                          As noted by Max in a previous Thread, the typical SOG guy was quite skinny by today’s standards, the stereotypical “operator” look of today was extremely rare.

                                          When we read about the the large loadouts they carried combined with the lack of real estate available to such thin men it isn’t surprising that many would compromise with pouches forward.

                                          In fact it wouldn’t surprise me if you measured their exposure when prone that they were still less exposed than our current so called “operators.” ;-)

                                        • #125897
                                          Brushpopper
                                          Participant

                                            Great video! I was watching one of the Para video’s awhile back and I think I saw these belt kits in one of them and thought they were interesting. I can see how something like this would be an option in a hot an humid environment. @Max are there certain situations or perhaps experiences you’ve had where this would be a more preferred method of carrying versus a chest rig?
                                            I went to the website, these look well made and extremely well thought out. Very cool, thanks!

                                          • #125956
                                            BrigandActual
                                            Participant

                                              I’m definitely interested in this stuff. But I’d have a hard time justifying it right now seeing as I already have a built-up FirstSpear patrol harness and another BFG beltminus with Mayflower jungle pouches on it. Still, I think the British belt kit is the most well thought out.

                                            • #125977
                                              DiznNC
                                              Participant

                                                Well, you are still OK, in that all that stuff was directly inspired from Brit kit. Some might say it takes it a step beyond, but we’ll have to see how the lighter stuff holds up. But as far as concept, it’s right on the money.

                                                On the SOG bubbas. Again extreme example of a very mission-specific load out. Proning out or hiding was not big on their list; up to 6-7 canteen pouches were worn on a STABO rig, with at least 3 pouches full of 20-rd mags, and 1-2 full of frags. This was pretty std from the reading I’ve done, not a pog in the rear with the gear. My buddy had the opportunity to interview several SOG veterans still in the area. They confirm this.

                                                Seeing how much smaller the MOD is, the Brits were always way more professional, as far as the average Light Infantry soldier went; you had to get to an Abn or Ranger Batt, LRS, or similar before seeing the same level of professionalism, including attention to LBE.

                                              • #126802
                                                wheelsee
                                                Participant

                                                  Anyone had any luck ordering?? The phone number part seems to be the hangup (pun intended), even when I add the US international code.

                                                  Emails have gone unanswered.

                                                  I try to look at items with at least a dual-purpose eye – this kit would be great for hunting also…..

                                                  • #126807
                                                    Max
                                                    Keymaster

                                                      Emails unanswered? To which email? I can notify my contact.

                                                      To phone them, it should be 01144 -(0)drop that zero – 1874 610036
                                                      so 01144 1874 610036

                                                      Prob best to phone them.

                                                      • #126823
                                                        wheelsee
                                                        Participant

                                                          Thanks. Will call in the early morning (working nights) for time differences.

                                                    • #126843
                                                      hellokitty
                                                      Participant

                                                        I ordered my belt online and have already received. Surprised how fast it shipped. 👍

                                                        HEAT 1(CTT) X 3
                                                        HEAT 2 (CP) X1
                                                        FOF X3
                                                        OPFOR X2
                                                        CLC X2
                                                        RIFLEMAN

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