any thoughts on a load bearing cart?

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    • #59611
      Max
      Keymaster

        (Reply not by Max, by deleted user)

        So I was considering the pro’s and con’s of using some sort of cart to help carry extra gear, casualties, etc. I came across this website http://www.combatreform.org/atac.htm

      • #59612
        Max
        Keymaster

          (Reply not by Max, by deleted user)

          What would be the main purposes for freefor?

          Resupply? Casualty extraction?

          It would be nice if we had heavy weapons…

        • #59613
          Corvette
          Participant

            Grunt – those guys have been challenging the “system” on a range of fronts for years. A good site to wander around and get one thinking. Like how they advocate bicycles – some folding like parachutist bikes – for mobility and load carriage purposes. They mentioned the large loads the Viet Cong moved just using bikes and wheeling them. The Japs certainly used bikes to good effect in Malaysia in rapidly advancing down the Malay Peninsula in 1942. I see a role of mountain/hybrid bikes for (largely silent) mobility and load carriage.

            Jake – multiple purposes. Not least of all the basic ergonomics in not exhausting.wearing out/breaking your “fleshware” unnecessarily.

            I’ve posted in other threads on load carriage. Here’s an article about the “greater than donkey” loads the UK troops were lugging in Afghanistan. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/8455741/Britains-donkey-soldiers-are-losing-the-war-in-Afghanistan.html

            We have a Western military doctrine based on “maneuver warfare” and then load up the infantry restricting their foot mobility. Makes great sense [not].

          • #59614
            Joe (G.W.N.S.)
            Moderator

              There are many types of Game Carts that would work depending on terrain.

              Bicycles have a proven history.

              Note the seat extension pole and handle bar extension to ease balance and control. It would be a simple matter to lengthen brake cables to aid in use over variable terrain.

              The Chinese Wheelbarrow

            • #59615
              Max
              Keymaster

                (Reply not by Max, by deleted user)

                Ive seen that site before and they have some good stuff.

                Im curious about it. Does anyone know if they are coming out with anything else? The last update I can find for anything on there is from 2012.

              • #59616
                Corvette
                Participant

                  Bicycles that use no fuel and carts that cna carry heavy items are in such common use by civilians its difficult to imagine they would not be of use in UW.

                  There are precedences where even major Nation state armies have use Bicycles to great effect (in the last weeks of the war german bicycle units were able to enjoy significant mobility even in the complete absence of fuel, while presenting a much lower signature to air attack)

                • #59617
                  Max
                  Keymaster

                    I think the designs shown at the OP combat reform site are laughable. How do you react to contact when attached to a cart? Get fit and carry your bergen! That is how you patrol and move relatively heavy weight.

                    Now, there is a definite application for devices you are not attached to, such as deer carts and similar, for moving heavy loads and casualties. The individual infantryman must however retain his individual gear on his person.

                    I can see mountain bikes having utility for crossing long distances. You would be limiting gear that could be carried because you can’t ride and carry too much. But you would be trading distance for gear. LBE, slung rifle and patrol pack would be about the limit. Maybe put panniers on the bikes for additional gear? It would be an option to approach an objective. Or for an OP party to warn the main group without use of radio – like a modern horse.

                  • #59618
                    Corvette
                    Participant

                      “How do you react to contact when attached to a cart? Get fit and carry your bergen!”

                      Punch the release and dump it, kill the enemy, then come back for it.

                      Something interesting to consider that mates the load-over-wheel-center capability of the Chinese wheelbarrow with the mobility of the bicycle:

                      http://www.xtracycle.com/edgerunner-27d-lux-freight

                      bike

                    • #59619
                      Max
                      Keymaster

                        “How do you react to contact when attached to a cart? Get fit and carry your bergen!”
                        Punch the release and dump it, kill the enemy, then come back for it.

                        :yahoo:

                      • #59620
                        Corvette
                        Participant

                          In some african countries entire regional economies are based on bike or cart based movement of goods.

                          There has to be a way to leverage this concept in a fuel starved environment… :unsure:

                          I guess it depends what kind of situation you are thinking of.

                          -Movement to contact or any patrolling clearly a NoNo

                          -resupply for Gs?
                          Maybe yes

                          – rebuilding an economy in the absence of fuels?
                          yes

                        • #59621
                          Corvette
                          Participant

                            No one is suggesting taking carts or bikes out on patrol for loads of <50lb. That is stupid. But if you are on a resupply route, isn’t it better to have the 100lb of supplies on a cart rather than on your back where you can’t dump it as easily and it tires you out quicker?

                          • #59622
                            Max
                            Keymaster

                              On a cart yes, but not one that is attached to you. I thought I made that clear? Use a deer cart style contraction, and have security out. Same for moving wounded.

                            • #59623
                              Corvette
                              Participant

                                So we have established that carts at least have some military utility.

                                What I am hearing you say is that it is better to have this:
                                (2) security with <50lb packs and full fighting load, rifles in hand
                                (1) guy pushing a 200lb cart with his hands, with his rifle slung and pack either worn or on the cart

                                Rather than this
                                (3) men with 200lb carts attached to them at the waist which can be dumped in a second, walking with rifles in hand and <50lb patrol load

                                I am not being facetious, I am making sure I understand that your thesis is “whoever is moving stuff moves stuff and that is their only job, everyone else pulls security” even though that is a reduction in loadbearing capacity.

                                But if we are going, say, 10km, and I am the guy pulling the cart, I’m gonna want it attached to me rather than pulling it with my hands the whole way. No? I can see how punching a waist release on a cart attached to you is not the natural response to an ambush. :)

                                That being said, I think that combatreform does have some good ideas.

                              • #59624
                                Max
                                Keymaster

                                  Looks like you are trying to put words in my mouth.

                                  NO.

                                  Let’s get a grip of this.

                                  If you are a fit infantryman you can carry a decent sized load without trouble. That in itself is a whole lesson on the patrol class – how not to pack heavy, and the philosophy behind it.

                                  Why are you even out there, and what are you carrying?

                                  Try and not carry more than 55 lb all up, if you can.

                                  The use of carts has a whole tactical employment problem attached to it. They would have utility, if you needed to use them, in certain circumstances. So glib answers don’t suit.

                                  I would consider their use on a specific mission to move a supply cache in, perhaps to a new G base in an AO oir whatever. I would consider having them on hand on a mission such as a fighting patrol, in echelon, to get casualties out. If I couldn’t use ATVs!

                                  And no, not one guy shits the bed and gets to pull it all on his own. It would be in two man teams. The whole patrol would be configured accordingly with security out.

                                  So fuck having it tied on your waist – that is probably less maneuverable than having two guys manhandling a deer cart anyway, and would likely be restricted to even going/trails etc.

                                  So before you start to pull pulks around, ask yourself why, and how you are planning your patrol, and why. And how.

                                  I have an answer to ‘Why?’

                                  Because fuck you, that’s why!

                                  :yahoo:

                                • #59625
                                  Corvette
                                  Participant

                                    I think much of the utility really is in the non-patrol role.

                                    -Moving a base.
                                    -post-SHTF economy moving trading items to market.

                                    The set-up itself is too common in the 3rd world to not have a lot of utility just perhaps not in patrol situation.

                                    Another example I could think of, perhaps when hauling the material for ambush fougasse(s) to an ambush site?
                                    In the absence of access to claymores G’s might have to use the heavier field expedient flame route for effective ambushes… :whistle:

                                  • #59626
                                    RRS
                                    Participant

                                      I don’t think any of this is rocket science. I think what stops people from actually thinking and doing is that they have seen the US and NATO mil and their supply choppers and have applied that model to their thinking. Well guess what, FreeFor will probably be a little light on “choppas.”

                                      Not every second of every day will be a break contact drill or an ambush so yes I think some sort of deer cart deal modified for carry of whatever needs to be carried could be useful an a vehicle denied area.

                                      Now don’t even get me going on drone resupply planes, just think of ultralight type planes carrying resupply for units.

                                    • #59627
                                      Max
                                      Keymaster

                                        (Reply not by Max, by deleted user)

                                        Hey guys, glad to see some discussion going. I was mainly thinking of using this in a support role. Using it to move casualties or heavy gear/ extra ammo. I definitely was not thinking of using it in a way to get around having to be in good shape to carry your gear. I was thinking back to the heavy hikes back at the School of Infantry with a .50 cal MG receiver on your pack. Here is a video of what I am imagining, except replace the dogs with people and put a flat bed onto it instead of a seat. I also wouldn’t attach it to the people pulling it, and maybe put a push bar on the back to help push it up hills or slow it down if needed. http://youtu.be/v1nW5y1ziSc

                                      • #59628
                                        Max
                                        Keymaster

                                          (Reply not by Max, by deleted user)

                                          I don’t think any of this is rocket science. I think what stops people from actually thinking and doing is that they have seen the US and NATO mil and their supply choppers and have applied that model to their thinking. Well guess what, FreeFor will probably be a little light on “choppas.”

                                          Not every second of every day will be a break contact drill or an ambush so yes I think some sort of deer cart deal modified for carry of whatever needs to be carried could be useful an a vehicle denied area.

                                          Sounds like an akhio with wheels.

                                          I was actually part of a test of the tactical use of the Army’s wheeled litter. Thing was [relatively] light, durable, and mobile as all get out. Got it from the guys at Combat Reform, back when it was more active.

                                          Great for casualties, hauling supplies into mission support sites with reduced signature, etc. As I recall, we fashioned a couple of straps that went across guy’s chests, diagonally so they could shed it quickly.

                                          For relatively open woods, it was fine. Beat hell out of lugging water cans.

                                          At least one commander used it to move a Mk19 into position to support a raid. He kept it far enough from the objective to extract it easily. METT-TC.

                                        • #59629
                                          Corvette
                                          Participant

                                            What Max is saying about not having a cart attached to you is applicable in another way in certain situations. Any successful deer hunter will tell you that a deer cart is great in level or rolling areas with no brush or logs on the ground. Once you’re fighting the fucker, dragging it over rocks and logs or taking the load on and off repeatedly or trying to keep it from rolling off down a hill you’ll quickly wish you’d just loaded up the packs or just dragged whatever your load is. You certainly don’t want it attached to you in that situation. It all depends on the specific scenario.

                                          • #59630
                                            Corvette
                                            Participant

                                              http://youtu.be/v1nW5y1ziSc

                                              You could hook your buddies up to that for PT!

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