Another church shooting (Video)

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    • #134265
      wheelsee
      Participant

        In Ft Worth (part of the DFW area) TX. You do train pistol at different distances right?? Been to Scott’s class, DCH class??

        Hardened your heart against evil??

        Church Mass Shooting in Texas Stopped by Good Guy with Gun

        Video toward the bottom

        • This topic was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by wheelsee.
      • #134267
        Joe (G.W.N.S.)
        Moderator

          I’d say they did very well without knowing their training/experience levels!

          Looks like the first victim was going for a small of the back carry. It would be easy to critique him not moving vice standing, but in such a densely packed area he may have just got someone else shot.

          The guy who killed shooter did well, it would be interesting to know his weapons background. If correct, a head shot under stress?

          Shooter got off two shots before he was shot, maybe a third as he was hit.

          Sad, but could have been much worse.

        • #134276
          wheelsee
          Participant

            Preliminary – the shooter (good) is being described as either retired police chief or FBI (could conceivably be both, not uncommon in TX for head of LE agencies to be retired federal officers)

            • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by wheelsee. Reason: clarification
          • #134284
            Joe (G.W.N.S.)
            Moderator

              As someone who is involved with my Church’s Security I’ve been reviewing this video watching the congregations reaction.

              Most did the prudent course and got down with only a few gawkers. Only one totally lost their mind.

              When we built new building I was able to get better spacing of pews and walkways; than depicted in this Church, particularly the perimeter. This enables our active armed response to have greater room to maneuver. Additionally we have medical kits discretely mounted throughout building with extra emphasis in sanctuary.

              I am also curious if shooter was a member or a visitor?

              I hope more information becomes available as to what preparations; if any, had been taken.

            • #134296
              wheelsee
              Participant

                A breakdown from Active Self Protection

                Joe has already mentioned some of the points.

                You ARE practicing both accuracy AND speed, right??

                • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by wheelsee.
              • #134298
                Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                Moderator

                  Update: Both congregation victims have died.

                • #134310
                  First Sergeant
                  Moderator

                    The breakdown from Active Self Protection nails it pretty good. There are a couple things that I want to cover though.

                    The first guy that got shot looks like he was carrying small of the back. It is one of the worst places to carry a gun. In the video you can see that he is fighting his shirt and jacket to try and draw. That slowed his draw down.

                    If you notice everyone else that was carrying, it took them way to long to react and draw.

                    Shotguns at close range can’t be beat as a man stopper. They will end the fight right now. Watch the first guy that gets shot, he was dead before he hit the ground. The second guy shot didn’t take the entire blast squarely so didn’t die immediately.

                    This is another example of complacency. No one thought this guy was a threat until it was to late. The first guy shot had probably never practiced drawing from the position he was carrying he pistol.

                    Glad it ended as quick as it did.

                    FILO
                    Signal Out, Can You Identify
                    Je ne regrette rien
                    In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                  • #134312
                    Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                    Moderator

                      The first guy that got shot looks like he was carrying small of the back. It is one of the worst places to carry a gun. In the video you can see that he is fighting his shirt and jacket to try and draw. That slowed his draw down.

                      I wonder if he was even part of their security or just an armed member. It wasn’t just his poor carry method, look at his physical condition, on a good day he can probably barely reach his pistol.

                      This is another example of complacency. No one thought this guy was a threat until it was to late.

                      Complacency is a hard one to deal with, even for people that think they aren’t. It’s not real, until it is!

                      Another issue is when dealing with a volunteer force. Unless you have enough members to rotate people so they have the duty every time, it’s easy to get sucked into paying attention to service vice security. People don’t attend Church to ignore service. Well most anyway.

                      This video will be circulated extensively at my Church, it’s golden example of how quick things happen.

                      It almost looks like shooter pulled shotgun and pulled trigger on an empty chamber, then as he remedied that saw first victim going for his gun.

                      I haven’t fired up my home computer with the big monitor to examine this in a larger view yet.

                      Without knowing how or if they actually trained vice just be there I just can’t be too hard on them. Guess I am a softy.

                      Overall while they could have handled it better they were still light years ahead of an unarmed group like that machete attack in NYC!

                    • #134336
                      Brian from Georgia
                      Participant

                        I’m an armed usher at my church. I’ll first say that I am glad I took First Sergeant’s Defensive Concealed Handgun class. If you have not taken this or other professional classes, you just don’t know what you don’t know.

                        That was a good video analysis. Besides the training issues already mentioned, there is something to be learned from their resource deployment (5 or 6 armed members!), situational awareness and decision making (mindset).

                        Some churches, mine included, have an elevated audio/video station. A trained guard up there with an AR and red dot scope could end a fight very quickly. Just sayin’.

                      • #134345
                        wheelsee
                        Participant
                        • #134348
                          Robert Henry
                          Participant

                            Watched the actual video a couple times.

                            Can’t tell if the dude was conversing for a while after producing the shotgun or most likely like Joe said, brought an empty gun to a gunfight.

                            The case for the covert draw!!!

                            When I teach weapons stuff to my combatives students one thing I’ll do is give 2 or 3 blue guns out to the group randomly and covertly and have them conceal them. Then I’ll have the group (usually 10-12) walk around each other for a few minutes. Just a milling around circle flow, closer and closer to each other. At the sound of the clap the armed ones must draw and get on target with someone while maintain movement the entire time.

                            You know how often a blue gun simply tucked inside Gi pants ABD position or at 3 o clock is missed by most of the group? The carry is missed but the draw is never missed. Why?

                            The triangle of doom!!!

                            If in 3 o’clock position this is most pronounced. Well, back up… first movement typically stops. Why? Cause most people can’t chew bubble gum and walk worth a crap. This fits most “gun guys” as well. And certainly most movement learned by gun guys is usually a rigid choreographed type of movement designed for simplicity and safety on the square range. The problem is that it is immediately recognizable.

                            Back to the triangle- so when the arm is brought to the 3 o clock position to draw, the arm makes a sideways triangle shape. This is the sure sign on an impending draw.

                            You can see it with the big guy that fumbled the small of the back carry position.

                            Even in the appendix/ABD carry position people tend to send up a triangle as well.

                            We must work on covert draws that limit the amount of this telegraphing.

                            This sort of thing could have very well saved the big guy’s life in the video. Not Monday morning quarterbacking, just a real observation based on hearing “I never saw you draw” hundreds of times from people actively looking for it.

                            The other big takeaway for all of us is H2H skills. Again, “coulda/woulda/shoulda” doesn’t mean much at this point but the 2nd victim (closest to shooter) had at least some time with the muzzle off of himself when the shooter shot the big guy. A long gun is simply a big lever in someone’s hands as far as close quarter’s work goes.

                            One could argue that if that guy went hands on with the shotgun that it would have blocked the shot for the guy that wrapped up the situation. True. But if he made a shot like that under stress he probably could have handled coming closer to take a clearer shot and/or even a close contact shot to be sure of angles. Again, monday morning quarterbacking, but things to consider.

                            www.jrhenterprises.com

                            Lost my MVT class list- been here a time or two :)
                            Team Coyote. Rifleman Challenge- Vanguard

                          • #134349
                            MarkA
                            Participant

                              one thing i would add, is that ALOT of people carry without a round in the chamber, believeing they will have time to draw, rack the slide, acquire target and then shoot. This video proves there was barely time to even just draw!

                            • #134351
                              Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                              Moderator

                                A important point; particularly for new members, our discussion here is most definitely not “Monday morning quarterbacking!”

                                This is completely about analyzing events for establishing “Lessons Learned” and hopefully making future responses better!

                                The comments above represent this analysis in my opinion.

                              • #134353
                                Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                Moderator

                                  This video proves there was barely time to even just draw!

                                  Carrying “Condition Three” is a poor choice. It is a relic of poorly designed weapons and/or a bureaucratic response based on fear.

                                  Military bases have been subject to this “bureaucratic fear” for a long time. Many qualified members have ignored this requirement despite possible consequences.

                                • #134354
                                  Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                  Moderator

                                    This Jack Wilson who neutralized Shooter is 71, while everyone is different, age can affect reaction times.

                                    Excerpt from recent linked article:

                                    Authorities said an armed parishioner also shot the gunman at the same time as Wilson.

                                  • #134358
                                    hellokitty
                                    Participant

                                      Mr Wilson owns a firearms training company. I beleive this is why he made a good shot in a very stressful situation.

                                      Training is EVERYTHING! Anyone can carry a gun. But the more training you have along with practice of drills, your survivability and those around you increase dramatically.

                                      I hear CHL peeps say you should only learn to point shoot and threat will only be within 7 yard.
                                      Bullshit. Active shooter situations will require you to make shots out to 20-100 yds. Ever measure distance from back of movie theater to emegency exit by screen? 40 yards easy. If you cant hit a 6×12 target at 30 yds consistently, you cant shoot.

                                      HEAT 1(CTT) X 3
                                      HEAT 2 (CP) X1
                                      FOF X3
                                      OPFOR X2
                                      CLC X2
                                      RIFLEMAN

                                    • #134362
                                      SeanT
                                      Keymaster

                                        Mr Wilson owns a firearms training company. I beleive this is why he made a good shot in a very stressful situation.

                                        Training is EVERYTHING! Anyone can carry a gun. But the more training you have along with practice of drills, your survivability and those around you increase dramatically.

                                        I hear CHL peeps say you should only learn to point shoot and threat will only be within 7 yard.
                                        Bullshit. Active shooter situations will require you to make shots out to 20-100 yds. Ever measure distance from back of movie theater to emegency exit by screen? 40 yards easy. If you cant hit a 6×12 target at 30 yds consistently, you cant shoot.

                                        I’m with Kitty here. Some of y’all saw me miss profusely with a big pistol drawing and shooting at steel. I went to the range and tried to figure that out because I know I can shoot that pistol well when ‘practice shooting’. What I discovered was that my grip sucked from the draw pretty much causing me to shoot high. This was from a battle belt type easy to get a grip on the gun type rig. Need to fix that. A deep concealed gun is going to be way harder. I have dedicated to myself that I will practice MORE with the variety of holsters I use, drawing and shooting for accuracy and form. Then I might add a timer but missing fast is easy.

                                        I also agree with Robert. My basic skillz at combatives made me instinctually wish that first guy up inside that muzzle to get control. The whole thing is sad.

                                      • #134363
                                        Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                        Moderator

                                          There can be no doubt that a quality training background is the foundation to success in a fight.

                                          Whether it’s CCW, H2H, or SUT this foundation combined with regular practice to include both fundamentals and realistic scenario training.

                                          This is the key to success.

                                          Yes, sometimes people get lucky and it’s this luck that we see exemplified by many Veterans. The survivor bias can mislead many into thinking they are more competent than reality would suggest.

                                          It is amazing how how “lucky” well trained people are! :yes: (sarcasm)

                                        • #134364
                                          Robert Henry
                                          Participant

                                            A important point; particularly for new members, our discussion here is most definitely not “Monday morning quarterbacking!”

                                            This is completely about analyzing events for establishing “Lessons Learned” and hopefully making future responses better!

                                            The comments above represent this analysis in my opinion.

                                            Sorry poor choice of words on my end. :good:

                                            www.jrhenterprises.com

                                            Lost my MVT class list- been here a time or two :)
                                            Team Coyote. Rifleman Challenge- Vanguard

                                          • #134369
                                            Joe (G.W.N.S.)
                                            Moderator

                                              Sorry poor choice of words on my end.

                                              No problem you were trying to avoid being labeled as a “Monday Morning Quaterback!”

                                              I just wanted to end this end consideration!

                                              Any conflict we have analyzed here have been for the purpose of learning to avoid past mistakes to the best of our abilities.

                                              It is never to judge those who were actually in the fight!

                                            • #134407
                                              First Sergeant
                                              Moderator

                                                Watching the video from the time the bad guy brought the shotgun out it was 5 seconds before the guy that killed him drew his pistol. He saw the shotgun and put his hand on his pistol but delayed his draw. Why I don’t know. If his marksmanship was that good he may have been able to stop it quicker.

                                                My point is if the bad guy has already produced a gun and is focused on someone else draw you pistol and be ready when the opportunity presents itself.

                                                FILO
                                                Signal Out, Can You Identify
                                                Je ne regrette rien
                                                In Orbe Terrum Non Visi

                                              • #134414
                                                wheelsee
                                                Participant

                                                  Interview of the good shooter (he explains the delay in his shot – people standing/moving)

                                                  https://www.fox4news.com/news/granbury-great-grandfather-takes-down-white-settlement-church-shooter-with-single-bullet

                                                  The camera only shows one angle versus the angle the protector had on the assailant.

                                                  • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by wheelsee.
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