Comment: Video Bundy Arrest / Finicum Killing

FoF Team Tactics / Alumni Weekend March 19/20
January 27, 2016
The Death of Liberty: Problems and Solutions for the Liberty Movement
February 4, 2016

There has been a lot already stated about this video over the interwebz. I have some comments on it, which originated in my disagreement with a commenter on the forum post about this HERE. The forum comments about the video start on page 2 of the thread, after the video (below) is posted. My primary disagreement was with very disparaging comments made about the account given by Victoria, who was in the white truck with Finicum as this situation developed.

My primary point is that you can only get so much out of viewing this video. There is much that you can’t see, and the internet has been alive with speculation, including about the mindset / thought processes of the individuals involved, primarily with what Finicum may or may not be thinking as he is killed. That is not analysis, but speculation. Since I commented on the forum post last night, I have had an opportunity to view the video on my computer screen, rather than my phone. It is still not the best, and it is blurry in many cases, and there is much that cannot be seen. Definitive answers need to wait on any audio / ground camera footage that may or may not be released.

You need to understand that this situation was a surprise, developed very fast, and was dynamic, violent and sudden. Lots of things can happen to people’s perceptions, to tunnel vision, problems with distance estimation, slowing of time, all sorts. It is easy to sit back and quarterback it from your keyboard, but it is for these reasons that I do not dismiss the statement by Victoria. It seems to corroborate fairly closely with the video, and where it doesn’t, it is easily explained by perception, terror, and inexperience. For example, the statement that Finicum was shot on his knees with his hands up: If Victoria was able to see him from the vehicle at the point he was shot, he was actually knee deep in snow, with his hands up. From her perspective, and her altered perception, this could well have been perceived as him being kneeling.

Not to digress, but there have been many advances in this sort of cognitive issue in terms of people’s statements after these events. Back in the 90’s I was doing public order training  prior to a deployment to Northern Ireland. I specifically remember a talk we had about a soldier who had killed  a man at close range with a baton round, to the head. In his statement, the man has been very close, huge, and wearing a big yellow jacket, in the act of attacking him. To cut a long story short, the man had been much further away, and not wearing a yellow jacket, but there had been a large yellow bill board behind him. In the soldier’s mind, he had faced an imminent threat, and had acted in self defense. His mind had conflated all the factors, in his terror. This is not junk science,  but to do with the perception of the mind. So, to be fair, remember that these factors play out on both sides: with Finicum, with those in the car, and with the perhaps less then ideally trained OSP officers at the roadblock.

Before I get into the micro of the situation in the video, I want to look at the macro situation. In my opinion, this whole takedown was very badly planned and executed, unless it was done to achieve this very effect. It was not necessary, and the group were on their way to a meeting they had arranged with a Constitutional Sheriff, which was a lie and a trap. It is not important whether you agree or disagree with the ‘tactics’ of the Malheur protest – it was a protest and they had been conducting themselves peacefully. They had been ‘allowed’ to travel freely on the roads. Please stay ‘out of the thought box’ when assessing these matters, and avoid the whole trap of the law enforcement language of ‘furtive movements’ and whether or not you should do exactly what when faced by lethal force from a law enforcement officer. That is all just ‘in the box’ ‘law and order conservative’ thinking, a breed that I heartily despise as they cheerlead for greater tyranny.

Now that we understand that for whatever reason, the FBI had decided to carry out this ambush operation on the road, let’s look at what we can see in the video.

The video:

1) I do not know why, nor can I see a specific reason, why the white truck took off like it did from the initial traffic stop, at the 8:15 mark.

2) The roadblock was sited on a curve, whether by design or incompetence, obscured by the snowbanks. It appears that the white truck did not see the roadblock until too late, and took action to swerve into the snowbank to avoid it. Whether they were trying to get around it, or simply avoid a crash, I do not know from the video.

3) At the 9:16 mark, as the truck crashes into the snowbank to the left, an officer steps out of the roadblock into the path of the truck, into the snow. I do not know what he was thinking – perhaps he thought that the truck was going around the roadblock. It appears that he fired two or three rounds (from statements and from seeing the impacts on the windshield as the helicopter circles). Of course, it is authorized to fire at a vehicle that is being used as a weapon against you – but it is debatable if by deliberately  putting yourself into the path of that vehicle  the same logic applies. My assessment is that the truck is deliberately trying to not hit both the roadblock and the officer on foot. Either way, this will be used by LE to justify the initial shoot into the windshield. The officer narrowly avoids being run over, and you can see him scoot off to the side and then make his way back to the roadblock vehicle.

4) In all the discussion about the actions of Finicum as he exited the vehicle, has anyone considered that 1) He has already been fired upon as he crashed the vehicle into the snowbank and 2) could he have in fact been injured in some way by one of those shots?

5) The next thing that happens is the killing of Finicum. My video is not that clear and I cannot see some of things that others have reported. It appears to me that he is shot by the officer on the right, who is advancing from the roadblock with a handgun presented. Finicum initially has his hands up, he is in the snow, he looks confused, his hands drop and then he is not sure what to do with them. It has been speculated that he may have been going for a handgun that may or may have not been there. He may have been grabbing at where he was shot. We have no audio and no real clear video – we do not know what small arms fire was present or verbal orders were being given at this time.  He was trying to surrender after crashing and rounds impacting his windshield. If the cops were shooting at him after he tried to surrender, it makes sense that he would either grab the wound, or perhaps grab for a gun that was or was not there – given that he saw the elephant at that point, and knew what they were going to do / were doing i.e. killing him.

6) The officer who appears from the left appears to have a taser, in the left hand. It seems to be the taser that puts Finicum down, because he is still standing from receiving handgun rounds. Once he is put down, he is clearly wounded, and no attempt is made to further either assist or restrain him – he is bleeding out at that point. I see a red laser on his head at various points but I do  not know if he was fired at again after he was put down. It does however appear that  if he was shot before he was tasered, he had his hands up and basically was given no quarter. The only justification for the shoot from the LEO perspective would probably be (in a situation they created), as a continuation of the initial near miss on the officer in the snow, and as a result of Finicum’s action to exit the vehicle,  which is not usually tolerated at ‘normal’ traffic stops.

7) At 9:49 Finicum is down and dying and we switch our focus to the vehicle as the helicopter circles. I would like to take more time and focus on the actions of all the LEOs at the roadblock, something I have not had time to do so far, having only played this several times, the focus being on the action at the white truck. That would be a worthwhile Intel effort. Anyway, as the helicopter circles, and is obscured at times by trees, we see non-lethal ‘flashbangs’ impacting on and near to the vehicle. It is hard to tell if any lethal rounds are fired initially, as the vehicle sits there. These flashbangs, as designed, would have been terrifying to an inexperienced person such as Victoria, huddled low in the vehicle. There is what looks like snow kicked up in the area of the passenger side window, either from non-lethal or lethal rounds. When I first watched this on my phone, it looked like rounds impacting the side window. It may also be non-lethal kicking up snow.

8) At 10:22 I am not sure what is impacting the passenger side of the vehicle, whether non-lethal, shotgun or rifle rounds. If it is bangers, there is no accompanying flash at this time. At 10:47 there are more of these impacts, which look to me like the vehicle is being stuck by rounds (lethal or non-lethal), not kicked up snow. Whatever is being used, are they trying to suppress and dominate the passengers remaining in the vehicle, who are huddled on the floorboards at this time, as per their statements?

9) At 11:30 you have a group of officers moving out to the back of the vehicle to cover its left side. Bear that in mind as the helicopter circles.

10) At 12:13, through the gap in the tress, you see what look like multiple impacts onto the window of the camper shell of the truck. Is this hitting at an angle from the guys to the rear left of the truck? Go to point 13 for a revision on this – it may well be tree shadow instead. At 12:20 you see impacts on, through or inside the windshield, which I initially thought may be a result of through-and-through rounds coming through the camper shell, through the cab, and out the windshield. On further viewing (coming back from point 13), I think the ‘impacts’ on the camper shell window are shadow, and what can be seen on/inside the windshield may well be non-lethal gas clouds being shot into the cab through the side windows, and impacting inside. I would also consider that some of these impacts could be from non-lethal rounds, such as pepper / CS rounds, which Victoria says were used (she said gas was used). At 13:20 there is a red dot playing on the left side of the truck, and then what look like white impacts into the driver side window, on the console. Is this SAF, or perhaps gas/pepper rounds? Have these side windows been shot out?

11) At 13:42 you see the red laser playing on Finicum’s head.

12) At 14:08 we are now back around with the helicopter and you see what looks like shattered safety glass in the passenger window which was not like that on the first pass around. Shot out? At around 15:00 the agents are milling around behind their vehicle, with individuals popping out to either take shots or at least aim their rifles at the truck. Are they now giving orders to the occupants to surrender and exit the vehicle? 15:06 the left side truck door appears to be open. Someone gets out with hands raised and tosses something to the ground, probably a handgun. There is a red laser playing around on him. From this point onward, the occupants are getting out and being taken into custody.

13) 15:43: OK, go back and see point 10: I see the same effect on the left window of the camper shell. I don’t see why there would be any shooting at this time – on further inspection, it may be a play of the shadow of the trees on the window? There is however smoke drifting at 16:00 – CS gas?

To conclude: there are some things that can obviously be seen in the video, and much that cannot, or is open to speculation. More information is required. I do not see this video discounting Victoria’s statement, if you take into account her likely altered perception. The truck and the occupants were subject to a large amount of chaos and violence. I do not know to what extent small arms fire was directed at the truck once it had come to rest in the snow. I simply cannot see. I can see a number of flashbangs and other impacts, some of which may be lethal, or non-lethal, and there appears to have been some sort of ‘gas’ used on the interior of the vehicle. To the occupants, including Victoria, this would have appeared noisy, violent and terrifying.

I cannot see any justification for Finicums death. I will reiterate that none of this needed to happen, at the macro level. You can say that this was bad decision making, in your perfect Constitutional make-believe world, or you can say it was great decision making, from the point of view of power and tyranny asserting itself. On the micro level, if professionals with judgement were conducting the ‘ambush,’ Finicum did not need to die. But what happened was par for the course in the way law enforcement operates in this country. The situation was created and it went down accordingly. Basically, Finicum tried to run over an officer, he got out of the vehicle, he made furtive movements, he failed to obey lawful orders instantly, therefore he was killed. That’s how they roll.

You no longer live in the country that was created in 1781. That Constitutional Republic, based on rightful liberty and equality before the law, no longer exists. You live in a a lawless banana republic, where might is right and there will never be justice.

Max

Update, added 19:48 1/30/2016, by the MVT G2 Shop:

As several have pointed out, there are numerous aspects to this video that are missing in order to conduct a full and proper analysis of the situation.  However, some additional observations on the limited data are below:

The initial stop:  Without dashcam or bodycam it is hard to observe what exactly is going on and what led to Finicum’s departure.  What can be seen is that both passenger and driver have their arms extended out of the windows and appear to be cooperative and surrendering.  It was reported that a shot was fired at the passenger which led to the “run.”  Although there is clear LEO activity and their weapons are trained on the vehicle and the passengers we cannot confirm if a shot was or was not fired by the LEO with the limited data provided.

(Note: FBI claimed at a news conference that, obscured by trees, Ryan Payne actually exited the vehicle and was taken into custody. This cannot be seen at all in the video).

The poorly positioned “Roadblock” but strategically placed “ambush point”:  It is clear that Finicum began braking at his first possible visual of the roadblock and did not release the brake until after he veered off the road.  On the video they had less than 3 seconds from their first visual of the roadblock to brake prior to inevitable impact.  There are other variables, such as vehicle weight, occupancy, road conditions, speed etc. that could be calculated into this analysis, but typically it is accepted that a small sized car actually takes over 4.6 seconds to come to a complete stop in good weather and road conditions and over 10.6 seconds to stop in other less favorable conditions not including ice.  Taking this into account we would assess that Finicum had no other choice but to veer off the road simply to avoid collision in the 3 seconds he had to take action in a heavy truck with passengers.  He again appears to veer further to actively avoid the LEO that jumps out in front of his vehicle.

Additionally the two trucks they used for the “ambush”:  A grey/white truck with front lights on and a black truck with its lights off on a black top road with a snowy background.  Neither truck having any other red/blue lights or even hazard lights flashing to the front.  The third vehicle in the rear has two obscured blue and red lights flashing towards the back but would not have been easily seen by the driver of any vehicle approaching. These factors would have actually made the roadblock extremely difficult to see.

(Note: there are very few, if any ‘blue lights’ on the vehicles, except visible to the rear. It is customary for law enforcement to have blinding blue lights on the time anytime they are stopping anyone at the side of the road, or for any reason – many of you will have been blinded by these excessive displays of blue lights. How did Finicum even know that he was running into a law enforcement roadblock?)

There is an oddity starting at around 11:10. There is an agent in a black top who comes from the front of the roadblock, around to the left side of the screen, and comes to stand behind the agents who are sheltering behind the rear roadblock vehicle, weapons trained on Finicum’s truck. . He appears to be gesturing at the aircraft to back away. In response to this, at 11:40, the screen jumps back to a longer distance shot of the roadblock. What are the agents doing at this time? Why does he gesture the aircraft to back off? At 11:47 the aircraft is further on the circuit and the shot zooms in again. The man in the black top appears to be waving again and perhaps coordinating the agents, a couple of who are steeping out round the back of the vehicles to aim/engage Finicum’s truck. At 12;09 as you are able to see through the gap in the trees, you can see either lethal or non-lethal impacts into or behind the windshield. Did he want to video to back off so they could open fire?

 

117 Comments

  1. Dan says:

    excellent analysis Max.
    It drives me insane the amount of armchair commandos who DEFINITIVELY say this or that based upon this video. without audio or on the ground dashcam/bodycam (you know they have it) we may never know if Finicum was reaching for something or if he was instinctively reaching at a wound after being shot.

    I would say this was the FBI intention though, the roadblock was in place, and they had no intention of allowing these guys to make it to their destination.

    this entire thing has me upset though. I feel deep down they murdered him as payback for being outspoken and to set an example to the rest. I put nothing past the Govt.
    I guess we may never know the truth, but I do agree our country has descended far past a Constitutional Republic and its only getting worse.

    Who knew George Orwell had such Foresight

    • Keith says:

      Max,
      This whole incident makes me sick to my stomach. I am ashamed to say that I spent a career in law enforcement these days. Back in the day, you avoided having to kill someone by communicating with them, showing compassion and realizing that most people, given the opportunity are reasonable. This was senseless. They had too many inexperienced people in a high stress situation that they created. The outcome was already decided before the stop occurred. It wasn’t going to go well. Lord help us all and God save the republic…. Or what is left of it.

      • Richard Dillon says:

        is another view point. The LEO”s were not inexperenced. What if they were very experiensed and their orders were to kill. I think that those in the truck were very lucky.

  2. Nonstop says:

    “… there will never be justice.” Truth. Justice is subjective and truely rarely experienced in nature. ‘Justice’ feels right or seems right, but not required.

    Moving forward, one has learned and confirmed a lot, i.e. Hammonds ordeal, the awareness created (e.g. The case, land issues, the constitution, law enforcement), the protest, the ambush, and people in general. How to overcome? That is work in progress…

    Good objective analysis Max. Not everyone is a seasoned pro as yourself.

    This krisanne lady is knowledgable on the constitution and has a likable and tough stance. Her voice and mannerisms are f’n annoying. Someone needs to convince her to separate liberty from religion.

    Matter of fact, everyone separate liberty, freedom, rights, land, environment, from religion. Bundys inclusive.

    One can be religious if one wants, but it is definitely not required. Keep religion to yourself and do not lump religion with the constitution.

    • Tucci78 says:

      “History does not record anywhere or at any time a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unknown without help. But, like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it.”

      — Robert A Heinlein

      • Solaratov says:

        Is there a point that you want to make with that…or did you just drop it here to try to derail the thread into a religious argument?

    • DJT says:

      Colorado City, AZ and Hilldale, UT are representative communities of the USA as a whole.

      https://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2016/01/23/ccj-flds-colo-city-protest/#.Vq4xEJY77CQ

    • G.W.N.S. says:

      Of all the things to have to comment on in this important topic.

      “…should simply shrug and move on.”

      This applies equally to you.

      For the record:
      I am as Radical a Christian as your likely to find.

      There is nothing Biblically or Constitutionally that gives me the expectation to live my life without criticism or insult.

      As a Christian it is expected that I love my fellow man regardless of their background or belief.

      I am also to forgive others trespasses against me.

      Clarification for those that attempt to twist this out of proportion, I am fully capable of loving and forgiving those that would do harm to me or innocents even though I may have to kill (not murder) them, not in vengeance but legitimate defense or just war.

      This is not an attempt to preach to all, but an attempt prevent a argument that has no Biblical foundation as well as prevent ill will among those that desire Rightful Liberty regardless of their beliefs.

      Max:
      “I will also never fight for Liberty alongside those whose intent is a theocracy.”

      I stand by this, as a Christian it is not mans place to subvert God’s decision to grant man freedom to choose and of course I would never submit to other religions being forced upon me.

      Please end this fruitless conversation.

      • G.W.N.S. says:

        Above was originally directed at “oughtsix” who was feeling “insulted” by (I believe) a comment by “nonstop.”

        “oughtsix” wrote in part “…should simply shrug and move on.”

        This response was for any Christians that would derail this important topic by being oversensitive to insult, which as a Cristian they should just forgive and move on without further comment.

        Regardless of our beliefs we share the same threat to Rightful Liberty.

        Hopefully this provides a proper context for above post.

        Let’s not let petty bickering get in the way of what should be a common goal to defend Rightful Liberty!

        • Palmetto says:

          That whole exchange, as far as I can tell, was moderated out of the comments.

          • G.W.N.S. says:

            Yes, but since my response remained I wanted to provide some context.

            My hope is we can avoid further divisiveness, this topic has enough of that on it’s own.

            Max is more than capable of keeping it or removing it on it’s merits.

  3. Sanders says:

    Mr. Finicum was summarily executed for the high crime of “Kontempt of Kop”.

    Wasn’t there a fellow in Las Vegas, not too long ago, who was murdered while trying to comply with “lawful orders”?

    I believe it something like, “Hands up!” “Freeze!” “Get down!” “Hands up!” BANG!

  4. Tater says:

    Where are Stewart Rhodes and the rest of the oft vaunted “Oathkeepers”? Not a peep from them since the drone video showing Lavoy Finicum’s cold-blooded murder at the hands of their “brothers” was released. Why have they not been publicly and vociferously leading the charge to have those responsible for Finicum’s death brought to justice (hung by the neck until dead)? I’ll tell you where they are; they are hiding behind that damned “thin blue line”. “Oathkeepers” my ass! Come on Stewie, grow a spine and prove me wrong!

    • colddeadhandsdays says:

      YES…Where are the oathkeepers???? This is exactly what I’ve been asking. Again. The time for these peaceful “actions” and demonstrations is over. We know exactly what the position of the FED Govt and it’s praetorians is on The Constitution and rule of law.

    • Ned says:

      Yup. No one can tell from the airplane video what orders were being hurled (contradictory?) or even if Finicum was shot before dropping his hands. But lots of “conservative, rule of law” people see it as justified. In fact, an lot of forums seemed dedicated to “experts” who wanted the “terrorists” either shot or burned to death.

      • Phillip says:

        Spot on. People calling themselves conservatives are applauding this bumbling mess/murder(however you see it) I am disgusted by the enmity show to this man. And if you try to reason, they call you stupid, crazy, conspiracy theorist, or worse. And hardly anybody wants to even consider the possibility that this was Kent State like mess up. So keep publishing oil tell and boldly on Facebook and other social media so others gain the courage to speak up.

  5. lineman says:

    Might be a good time to do a little refresher reading on Selcos time and Ferfals time since they both of their realities are what we are and in the future going to experience…

  6. Doug-mtnforge says:

    Your right Max.
    Right about everything.
    There was no reason on God’s green Earth to kill Lavoy Finnicum. None.
    Whatever remained of that country was gone the moment Loyd was murdered.

  7. MTHead says:

    I think we can all safely agree with Mao at this point.
    “Politics comes from the barrel of a gun”. And this was politics at its purest.

    • Wally says:

      Doug -mtnforge..Whatevers left of what country motherfucker? if you’re talking about my country you dipshit..stfu..we are far from fucking gone

      • Doug-mtnforge says:

        Wally, no need to be hateful like that. If you paused to consider my comments in the context of what Max so thoughtfully took great pains to define before being so hateful, you might grasp my comment as meaning whatever remained of a government predicated on the idea of rule of law bled out in the snow with LaVoy Finnicum’s execution. As Max himself implied if I grok his reasoned words correctly.
        The FBI or anybody in this government doesn’t decide or determine my Liberty or the existence of this Republic, we do, the government itself on principle of rule of law is wholly illegitimate and unfit to determine the nature of this Republic. It is why there is the concept of Rule of Law to begin with. We make up this republic, no one else. Having said that, you Sir, You have no business questioning my principles courage or freedom to speak my mind in such a manner. In doing so you disqualify yourself from being a reasoned and rational judge of my character and my reverence for my liberty. You do not even know me. Your comments are no better than what the FBI has done to these brave souls.
        In fact makes me question your veracity, are you an agent provocateur or are deliberately being a shit stirrer? I hope not.

        Brother, what is the sense and purpose of your nastiness when this tragic event in Oregon has redefined everything. A great American has been assassinated for being a Freeman. He died for all our liberty and everything this Republic stands for. Your hate and derision only plays into the hands of those who presume to rule over us. It is time we all find it within ourselves to discover solidarity and common cause and work together.

        • lineman says:

          I have to think Wally is just a troll Doug…Because if I don’t I get really discouraged that we have that(him) on our side in this conflict;)

          • Mtnforge-Doug says:

            I agree L. There are a few regulars who use different avatar’s. You can see a pattern and character to their shit stirring which belies their authenticity.
            This guy is most likely one. He was probably having a hissy fit because people are rightfully and honestly being outspoken about “His” regime.
            I’m just going by my gut instinct, yet after commenting for quite awhile, you can tell genuine comments from genuine people verses the trolls and agent provocutuers.
            Max has spoken the cold hard truths here. Like LeVoy Finnicum. That is dangerous stuff in a world infected by universal deceit and misdirection. After all, LaVoy was executed because he was not afraid, he refused to bend a knee, and he was veery articulate and inspiring, qualities of profound leadership, a very dangerous thing in this time of federal facism. If they can murder LaVoy Finnicum, trolling operations is simple pie. Wally could just be a grouch too and I’m talking out my arse. But I figure there are no unrelated unintended coincidences in obama land.
            I believe too much is at stake for the regime. They have committed so many crimes, are so corrupted, have so much blood on their hands, if they can, there is no way they will ever relinquish power. A continuation of the regime actors is mandatory. After all the death and destruction those running things are behind, the rivers of misery and blood they have sowed across this Earth, it is only a matter of time before we end up like Libya, Syria, the Balkan’s. Egypt, take your pick. It is what they do. Destroy everything. Order out of chaos. Trolling is nothing in comparison. But it is important to sow fear and discontent, divide and conquer is a time honored tradition of dictatorship since time began. The internet has thrown the sonofabitches a knuckleball, and our personal arms are a deterent. So trolling by federal sycophants makes a lot of sense.
            But who knows for sure, those involved in conspiracy aren’t prone to revealing their conspiracies.
            The most important thing is we all stick together and remain vigilant and prepare ourselves.
            I hope Wally figures that out before it is too late.

          • lineman says:

            Amen Brother… Your words are always an encouragement…

      • Tom says:

        You are quite eloquent.
        Have a drink and relax.

        • mtnforge-Doug says:

          All I really know is they killed that fellow. And they are going to kill more of us who want to be left in freedom before this is over. Gonna be a lot of killing, dying time is here. It is contingent upon many of us we keep a cool head, we look out for each other best we can, stand by what is right and morally defensible. And be steadfast for not just ourselves but as Brothers.
          It is our greatest weapon that right there, may be the most powerful weapon ever devised since the idea of liberty.
          It is all we got, each other, because the sonofabitches will pick us off piecemeal otherwise. It is a force multiplier like nothing else. Max has proven it every time he gets it through our skulls, small unit infantry tactics are not only the basis of all combat, they are part and parcel of being united men, of indomitable spirit, of fighting to win, and like SUT, the only way we get there is together.

  8. Crazy Stevo says:

    From the video below there is sound when the shooting started and you can hear automatic gunfire. Also note he reached for his gun after being shot at and shot.

    http://video.foxnews.com/v/4727157766001/fbi-releases-video-of-fatal-shooting-of-oregon-occupier/?#sp=show-clips

    • Max says:

      Stevo: that is the same video, cut, at an FBI news conference. There is no audio in the vidoe, because it is from a helicopter, and the audio has been removed because it would have been of crew/radio traffic in the cockpit.

      I believe the sound you stated as automatic gunfire was noise from the news confrence, possibly cameras going off?

    • Wally says:

      you stupid son of a bitch…most of you pussies never been in a fist fight let alone a fire fight for your life..

      • SP says:

        And you have, I suppose……?

      • Grandpa says:

        Wally, I’m going to clue you in, since you have no clue… those who have been in a fight – fist…, knife…, gun… – or, a battle of wits even; don’t have to talk about it, or try and belittle someone based on whether or not they have. I could tell you why, but I doubt you would understand.
        Suffice it to say, you should learn to respect your betters. You should also respect your elders. Your tone indicates that you have perhaps been in a fight – if being the bully on the playground is counted.
        The discussion here is among grown men, as you have nothing of substance to add, ask your mom to make some spaghettios for you, and see if you can get to the next level of your video game – that’s the closest you ever get to a firefight. Take it from one who has been in more than his fair share of firefights; the only pussy here is you.

        • SP says:

          Respect is something that is EARNED, not DEMANDED.

          Oh, by the way, I’ve also been in more than my fair share of IED strikes, firefights and ambushes on multiple tours in NI, Iraq and Afghanistan as a British soldier.

          You dig…………..ya fucking mong!

          Lastly, do you hear that, I can. I think it’s your Dad telling you to go back to your room as he wants to have some “special alone time” with you.

      • Tom says:

        Wally,
        What do mean by most? Are you trying to overcompensate for your illusions of grandeur?

  9. HiDesertRat says:

    Max wrote:

    3) At the 9:16 mark, as the truck crashes into the snowbank to the left, an officer steps out of the roadblock into the path of the truck, into the snow. I do not know what he was thinking – perhaps he thought that the truck was going around the roadblock. It appears that he fired two or three rounds (from statements and from seeing the impacts on the windshield as the helicopter circles). Of course, it is authorized to fire at a vehicle that is being used as a weapon against you – but it is debatable if by deliberately putting yourself into the path of that vehicle the same logic applies.

    At age 17, living on the East Coast, nearly out of school in June, was informed by a friend that the ‘surf was up’ and I was a surfer. Got into my car, surfboard in the back, and headed down the only road to the beach in town, one lane each direction. Speeding of course, lo n behold, officer numbnut steps out of his vehicle, in my lane, hands on hips, defying the gravity of the situation. Unknown to barney fife, a car was barreling down in the opposite lane behind him (parked cars both sides, no room to manuever). Massive brakes, smoke, skidding, stopping within 2 feet of officer moron. We end up in a shouting match and me with ticket. He had not a fucking clue that he had endangered himself, but in his judgement, I was the criminal. NOT A FUCKING CLUE! Its all perception.

    Lets face it, the folks that generally apply for these positions are not the cream of the crop, nor intellectuals. You know that having had interactions with their ilk. Yes, there are some decent individuals among them, few and far between in my estimation. Most just wish to assert their idea of authority and met out ‘their’ justice accordingly. We all know that. Its not rocket science. When we forget that, bad things occur.

    Also, as an aside, Finicum, as has been brought up numerous times, stated something to the effect ‘he was ready to die/fight/whatever’.
    But he was still a human capable of free will and conscious thought and when reacting to circumstance of road block, ( gun shots?) quick reaction and ….NOW WHAT?? Could have changed his mind, and quickly, thinking of family, friends, life, whatever, there might be a better alternative and decided to stay on this earth, despite his past proclamations to the contrary. Many do not allow that in their alleged ‘view/opinion of his narrative, and their narrative as well. After all, isn’t there some mantra among soldiers that there is no atheists in foxholes? Sudden transformation. I believe in God? It does happen, usually called an epiphany or revelation, but humans are capable of it, why not Finicum also? He was not allowed the opportunity to evolve and continue his life.

    The borg regime created the classic Cloward-Piven strategy for this entire construct. The statists will not give up their power willingly. This is just another example.

    • P says:

      Maybe Finicum jumped out to try to get them to stop shooting, to protect the women in the truck.

    • Viator says:

      FWIW, I would only add that the Finicum family has stated that they believe his leaving the vehicle and moving away from it to the left, through the snow (definitely not “charging” anyone) was indicative of him trying to draw (fire and?) attention away from the vehicle and its occupants.

      Nothing in Max’s excellent assessment above, the video as we have it, or Victoria’s account would seem to detract from that suggestion, or render it less likely, and it seems in keeping with what we know of the man otherwise (good family man, intensely loyal to friends, etc.).

      If so, he died trying to save others, which makes his death all the more tragic…

      (And as I go to post this, I see that P has raised the same point. Sorry if I’m just a johnny-come-lately on this…)

  10. GS says:

    Might is right. Indeed.

  11. OldSoldier says:

    The finest AAR I’ve read to date. Great job Max.

  12. BusyGuyinTville says:

    Thanks for weighing in on this. I’m curious what you think about why they pulled the initial traffic stop so far ahead of the actual roadblock. Is that SOP for those kind of things? In retrospect it almost seems like they were baiting them to take off and be surprised by the roadblock around the curve ahead. Certainly lots of lessons to be learned here.

  13. Longbow says:

    It looked to me as though Finicum didn’t reach to his waistline until he was shot the first time. He was treated like a terrorist and shot because his posture was something other than abject submission. “If he ain’t surrendering’, he’s a Terrorist. Take him down!”

    In simpler terms, he was shot for Failure to Grovel.

  14. m rapp says:

    .to answer YOUR question, it was planned to do exactly this….why did he rabbit after the first stop…the fuckers were shooting at them !! That’s why Payne jumped from the truck with his hands up yelling there are women in the truck…..NOW just think this out…they new they would run and that is why the two black vans did NOT pursue because they did not want to get caught in the angle/crossfire coming from both sides of the road…..this is MURDER in the first degree and payment will be extracted.

    • Max says:

      Hmmmmm. Maybe true, maybe not, but I couldn’t see that in the video. Unless we get other evidence, speculation.

  15. David Landro says:

    This entire debacle should be infinitely instructional for those with eyes to see and ears to hear… IMHO; protesting, voting, etc. are a time waster, a worthless endeavor because the fix is in. What happened here is just the beginning of the move from quasi socialism to fascism.

    Someone like Trump comes along and you can just about see the hope dripping off of him. People are crawling over each other to touch the hem of his robe. I am not fooled into believing he or anyone else [especially not Rubio or (Goldman Sachs)Cruz] will change things. They will just prolong the demise of this once great nation by perhaps a few years. The two party system of control was pure genious. Give them the illusion of choice and they clutch hope to their breasts like a baby with a teddy bear. Affectively neutering any action to strike the bell of liberty and freedom.

    What they do is prolong the inevitable. They give people false hope with empty rhetoric that they have no plans to follow-up on… This kind of hope is counterfeit. DHS is a para-military arm of the White House, TSA- a joke, BATFE- incompetent and untrustworthy, NSA- spying on the US, The CIA is pretty clearly a tool for global destabilization. And I’m sure there are acronyms we’ve never heard of that do not have our best interests at heart. We have lost our Republic and now should be focused on taking our country back and forging a new republic.

    Anyone who still believes that voting will save us, is either a idiot or the enemy.

    It is a Ruse. Similar to Kissinger in the early 70s with the Vietnamese. He engineered their re-supply and troop buildups by holding peace talks that no one expected to go anywhere, allowing the VC the opportunity to come back and kill our guys. A ruse.

    Political maneuvering with a goal of keep you and yours from doing what must be done. A false assurance of relief and security. They all lie and they all have the same goal. It has nothing to do with us and everything to do with the one percent. The so called elite.

    • old granny says:

      Totally agree. You can’t trust the Leos, any of the govt. Has no one ever had to talk to IRS or Medicaid people? Our only hope is God, and He hates cowards, the Bible says so if you start a protest be ready to shoot first! Time for talk no, time to take our country back just saying

  16. Palmetto says:

    Everything hinges on what happened during the minutes of the initial stop. There would be no incident at the roadblock if Finicum had not fled the initial stop. We need to know exactly what was said and done at the initial stop.

  17. CA Warrior says:

    Max,

    Great article and analysis. Three things:

    – Likely a UAV was used instead of a copter. Video shot HiDef from altitude. Camera manipulation is robotic, not smooth, and thus no sound/ambient noise because of the platform.

    – Being a former LEO, I always challenged from behind cover, never out in the open as we see in this video. The three thugs on the right side of the frame reminded me of a third-world firing squad. And the stooge that came out of the trees on the left put himself definitively in the kill zone.

    – Where were the less-than-lethal measures? Someone with an ARWN gun or beanbag shotgun had an excellent opportunity to take down Finicum with a single shot, and everyone lives to tell about it. Simply tragic that these govt hoods choose an intended tragic conclusion to this event.

    • Max says:

      I think helicopter. It just looks like the many reels of helicopter footage I have seen. No noise is likely because the soundtrack was radio chatter from pilot etc and it was simply removed.

  18. Grandpa says:

    LaVoy carried a wheel gun, 45 long Colt; in a gun belt – holstered on his right side, with 45 long Colt rounds in the loops. LaVoy also owned/possessed a 1911 and a shoulder rig for the same, which would – if he had it with him – be on his left side. LaVoy was right handed. Don’t know if the 1911 was with him, the wheel gun was, assuredly.
    Now, IF he was exiting the truck with intent to do harm, OR was intent on ‘suicide by cop’ it is my belief he would not have done so ’empty handed’…
    My question is… no Oregon or fed Leo has a taser? Deadly force from the outset is authorized because it is a 55 year old white guy… Copy that.
    Great AAR, Max. What we witnessed was an execution. Pay back is a bitch.

  19. Jackhammer says:

    The length of this standoff waned the people down. Being amateurs and good citizens, they lost their focus, giving the planners time to establish imaginary lines of communications and trust. Hence, the agreement to hastily travel (without over-watch) outside their (until then) safe haven. The planners of this event never rested.

  20. Ray says:

    All other disagreements aside this was spot on. Well said Max

  21. NavyJack says:

    Max, Here is a version that is zoomed in and can be played at 1080p HD. It repeats the killing sequence 4 times:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpQ6CF9otUs&feature=youtu.be

    • GS says:

      Also, need to add this which will put my comments into perspective:

      http://www.mycentraloregon.com/2016/01/28/fbi-addresses-fatal-shooting-of-lavoy-finicum/

      Some more quick thoughts on this:

      Had the LEO who ended up at 5 o’clock already been firing his weapon as Lavoy was first seen moving away from the vehicle with his hands up? If he’s being fired at despite trying to surrender, does Lavoy decide to go for his own weapon at this point? Pay close attention to the other officer at 3 o’clock who is running away. This would appear to be the behavior of someone running for cover as the bullets started flying. Given that Lavoy was never able to unholster a weapon, it’s unlikely he was the one doing any shooting. Taser guy at 9 o’clock looks like he is also wanting to stay out of the way of some hot moving lead –his left arm is outstretched like someone about to get burned.

      Bottom line is to know more of what happened, we need to know what shots from what directions hit Lavoy. Has his family taken possession of the body and has it been examined by an independent coroner?

      http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/oregon-medical-examiner-identifies-militant-killed-as-lavoy-finicum/

      “The medical examiner’s office said the results of Finicum’s autopsy are not available at this time.”

      Similar with the white truck –what rounds hit it where (and when)? Also, did they take rounds when they were stopped the first time? According to the FBI: “We can’t comment on what may have been going on in the truck at this time [when they were first stopped], but those details may come out later as part of the overall shooting investigation.” If shooting had already commenced at the first stop and spike strips were used before they hit the road block, might this have caused some psychological panic with Lavoy figuring he was going to be killed? We will probably never know because those “details MAY come out” but most likely won’t. Remember, “MAY” wording always leaves it up to the discretion of the government.

      Given: “As the white truck approaches the roadblock, there is a spike strip across the road but it appears Finicum missed it” brings the truck crash into a whole new light doesn’t it? Spike strip. Crash. But, “it appears” wording is used. You can’t see the government’s cards, but it’s a tell. We need this information.

      Audio would be very helpful to know when the shooting started and what commands were given at both points. That there has been no more audio/video provided from any of the dashcams from all those vehicles and open mics on those LEOs walking around is highly suspect.

  22. robroysimmons says:

    Overall IMO this has been poor political theatre and hence has not drawn my interest. Which is kind of ironic since the first Bundy debacle regardless of the CF it descended into was better optics since it was cammy clad clowns killing cows and threatening people, and basically decent people heading the call to help.

    My last bit of advice, you can’t let flowery long speeches of truth, justice, constitutional liberty and other moral high ground virtue signaling keep you from keeping a tight game.

  23. P says:

    The thing that struck me is how long the cops stood there at the initial stop with rifles pointed and ready to shoot. It wouldn’t have taken that much courage for one of them to walk up to the window and start talking to the driver. These were not desperate criminals, and the cops all knew that. Instead, apparently with poor trigger discipline, one of them let off a shot when Ryan (?) stuck his head out the window. How helpful was that? I’m not impressed with police actions here. Par for the course.

    • MTHead says:

      Yes, it struck me as odd the lack of marshall ability on the part of all involved. I’ve said for years i’ve seen more evidence for bigfoot than i have any kind of real “militia”. And this proves it.
      Max, need a west coast school!

      • Max says:

        The answer isn’t a West coast school. The answer is private group classes. I have one in Idaho this summer. If you want a private class and can get people together, we can make it happen. Rates are affordable.

  24. Michael says:

    WELCOME TO THE NEW WORLD ORDER…

  25. Diz says:

    Well, what gets me is the parallels between the “black lives matter” movement, and what we’ve seen here. When a protected class is perceived to be persecuted, they scream their tits off, and the progs with their propaganda arm in the media are there to cheerlead.

    But when an old white “bitter clinger” is killed, basically crickets. So much for equality eh.

    So yeah, you can see a bit of the truth in the black protests in this country, when police mis-conduct spills over to someone who actually works for a living, and is shot down like a dog. But I find it interesting that the black activists are basically targeting local law enforcement, where it’s the feds coming after our guys.

    But bottom line, Max hits the nail on the head on this one. We no longer live a constitutional republic. The federal government is out of control, and bullies anyone who dares to call them on their over-reach.

  26. GenEarly says:

    I agree with you Max, the Feral tyranny is intolerable. My point, as only a historian, is that a winning tactical is very very unlikely based on a flawed, awful strategic.
    Lee’s demise at Gettysburg comes to mind, vs Lee’s success at Fredricksburg and Chancellorsville.
    Harney county was and is the right fight at the wrong place, wrong time of year, for the wrong populace. Just my 2 cents.
    PS: When you are a Field Leader I suspect the above listed “wrongs” will not be present, and the citizens will flood in like they did following Lexington Green.
    Indian style shooting those Redcoats on the road as they retreated back to Boston had to be a something else.

  27. Joe says:

    Excellent AAR!

  28. Rich says:

    A classic deer hunting “drive”. Prey is “driven” from one end of the canyon to the other where the hunter lies in wait.

  29. OldSoldier says:

    FYI folks, for those who have not seen it, there is a PDF transcript of the Victoria Sharp audio available at: http://northwestlibertynews.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Transcript-of-Victoria-Sharp-Recording.pdf . It’s very helpful when watching the vid. Once again Max, very fine job. I’ve sent it far & wide.

  30. Buckaroo says:

    Hi Max. I posted this comment over at Weaponsman’s page, and wonder what you think.

    ————

    Pretend you are the Feds for a moment. What are your goals?

    1) End the standoff on OUR terms, not Bundy’s terms.
    2) Use lethal force against some, or all, of the Bundy group, to discourage this type of thing from happening again. Pour encourager les autres, as Hognose likes to say.
    3) Use lethal force…but, absolutely don’t get any Federal agents killed. “Everyone goes home at the end of their shift!”. So you need to put together a tactically solid ambush.
    4) Thoroughly document, with video and audio, the use of lethal force against the Bundy group.
    5) Publish video and audio to ensure (a) you win the case in the Court of Public Opinion, (b) you make the Bundy protesters look as dangerous as possible, and (c) you teach future protesters what happens when you stand up against the Feds.

    So– how do you best accomplish these goals? First, you have to stage a confrontation that leads to delivering lethal force. And, this can’t just be a confrontation, but a solid ambush. And most important, you have to control all video and audio of this ambush, which means you cannot stage the ambush at the Malheur Refuge (which presumably is under video cameras controlled by the media, or the Bundys, or both) — you have to arrange it in a remote area NOT currently under any third-party video monitoring. A remote stretch of road will do nicely, and there are certainly plenty of these in the area. So, you wait until Bundy and/or some of his leadership ventures out of the Refuge. You allow them to move freely on and off the Refuge for a few weeks, in order to give them a false sense of security, and track their movements. Once you get an idea of how they move tactically, and they have begun to let their guard down, and you get some people on the inside so you can get some advance notice of their itineraries, you stage the ambush. Deploy airborne assets to ensure aerial video, and to track them; put GoPro cameras on your agents and their vehicles. Put your roadblock on a blind curve to get inside their OODA loop; once they hit the roadblock, get your cameras rolling and look for your first opportunity to shoot. Hopefully you can goad someone (or someones) into drawing their weapon(s) in which case you will produce good ground-level GoPro video from many different angles demonstrating that the Bundys are violent aggressors; if you can’t get them to draw, then simply shoot on even the slightest suspicious movement, knowing that the aerial footage can almost certainly be used to support almost any narrative you decide to use, and destroy the ground-level GoPro video.

    This plan produces four possible outcomes:

    (1) Someone from the Bundy camp draws a weapon on the Feds, and maybe even gets a shot off before being shot down in a hail of gunfire. You release all your video, and you get to kill one of the Bundys. Best possible outcome.
    (2) You can’t get them to draw a weapon on you. Not a perfect outcome, but as long as they made any kind of irregular movement, you get to kill them and then trot out the aerial video which will support an appropriate narrative.
    (3) You can’t goad them into either firing, or even drawing, or even making anything like a vaguely threatening movement that can be captured from aerial video. But, you shoot (and hopefully kill) at least one of them. Destroy all video evidence, and then it turns into He Said/She Said, and you at least get the deterrent value of a kill.
    (4) You can’t goad them into either firing, or even drawing, or even making anything like a vaguely threatening movement that can be captured from aerial video. And you don’t shoot at them, for whatever reason, and you simply arrest them. This is by far the least preferred outcome, as all you do is end the confrontation without producing a kill, and without producing any video that you can use to portray the Bundys as dangerous aggressors.

    The risk/reward on all four outcomes is net positive, and on outcome (1), it is gigantically positive. Kudos to the Feds on putting together a terrific plan, and solid execution. While they didn’t get the knockout win that (1) would have produced, they got outcome (2), which is a solid tactical win for the Feds.

    • Max says:

      I can’t dig into this at this time. I will however say that, to end the situation and ‘cut the head off the snake’ an ambush option rather than raid is far more tactically sound.

      Turns out that all the crowing about the Malheur protesters having put themselves into a tactically poor position at the refuge, was irrelevant, due to their penchant for moving about on the roads.

      Malheur was not a ‘tactical’ operation, it was a protest by amateurs and as it turns out, a lot of non-veteran poseurs. Bundy appears to have suffered from a bad crew.

      • Buckaroo says:

        Thanks. Looking forward to more detailed thoughts, if you find the time to dig into it, and are so inclined.

  31. NOG says:

    Tator- It is immaterial where the OKs are AFTER the attack*. My question is where were they before? They are INeffective at best, a fedgov controlled opposition operation at worse. I suspect the latter.
    This should have never happened if they had a clue and are not a fedgov op. I know enough not to second guess what happened just based on that video. I also know we will never know just what happened from the gov side,only by the stories of those patriots that were there seeing it from their side. And like Max said, its difficult to know what is going on at the time.
    Now PPN is calling for a Call Out in Burns. What use would that be? The other side has decided to use lethal force. Shit or get off the pot.

    *I don’t call this a LEO enforcement action, it was an attack. A ambush. Period end of story.

  32. og says:

    Like Max says, the first stop is missing too much to conclude what went on there. I agree also that it could have been handled differently to provoke a more peaceful result. What we do know to have happened (Lavoy Finicum dead) really does appear to be an encouraged result.

    I find it interesting that the aerial footage focuses on that vehicle and not the vehicle carrying Ammon Bundy. Why? Is there equal surveillance footage available of the other arrests? I also find it interesting that during the final location there is the sneaky guy with the taser comfortably exposing himself to the occupants of the vehicle and yet the vehicle was then bombarded as if they are a threat. Really? Why?

    Another interesting thing is the aerial footage is shot with a continous need to be in a counter clockwise flight pattern and never is able to hover in one place, such as a helo is capable of. What was it really?

    The two videos released by the FBI are interesting in the way they appear to hide potentially very important facts. Why is there a higher quality version with significant amount of footage missing, then a low quality “unedited continuous version” with missing footage and a date stamp of the day after the incident? It’s like they have one version that shows enough of what they want to be seen, and another that had to be made so it doesn’t show too much.

    I can’t see a lot of what some have said they see in the videos. I still haven’t seen any of it on a high quality display though either. I do agree with Max’s rational and objective accessment. I have to say he has been right-on throughout this whole “occupation” ordeal. Thank you Max for keeping it level and in focus.

  33. Thanks for astute observations. I fear that we may never know the FULL story. I am sure what will be told will be presented to the good of the feds. As someone said on another post, why was lack of support for these guys? If there had been good support, there could have been forward vehicle and rear vehicle protecting them. I know this sounds like quarterbacking, but in the future, there needs to be more support and security.

  34. Iceni26AD says:

    Thank you, Max, for taking the considerable amount of time to study this video. Your assessment is the best I have read.

    • oughtsix says:

      We can analyze this sixty five ways from Sunday until the cows come home and we all turn blue in the face.

      The only important conclusion, and it is perfectly obvious, is that the orcs intended to kill Lavoy Finnicum; that the feds committed premeditated murder upon a man trying to surrender; a man who had committed no offense other than to make known the justifiable grievances of himself and a whole class of fellow ranchers (not to mention the rest of his fellow Americans)and to defy the over reaching and un Constitutional tyrannical power of the District of Criminals.

      That is all anyone needs to know… it is the prime determinate of all subsequent plans and actions. That is our current and foreseeable reality, graphically and tragically displayed for those with the eyes to see and the wit to comprehend.

      • lineman says:

        Amen Brother…

        • oughtsix says:

          Looking on down below, with the exception of Lordchamp, I didn’t even make a dent, did I?

          • lineman says:

            Brother we hope that you did on those who read and don’t comment… You have made an impact on my life so I have confidence you have made it on others as well…Keep the faith Brother…

          • Grandpa says:

            06, as always brother; we contend with not only orcs, but those who:”having eyes, do not see; having ears,do not hear.” We take heart because we’ve read the Book and know Who wins.

  35. […] LaVoy Finucum is dead, gunned down in the winter snows of Oregon. Max Alexander has provided the best early commentary yet on the shooting. Finicum unceremoniously joins an […]

  36. Max says:

    The following added to the bottom of the post as an update:

    Update, added 19:48 1/30/2016, by the MVT G2 Shop:

    As several have pointed out, there are numerous aspects to this video that are missing in order to conduct a full and proper analysis of the situation. However, some additional observations on the limited data are below:

    The initial stop: Without dashcam or bodycam it is hard to observe what exactly is going on and what led to Finicum’s departure. What can be seen is that both passenger and driver have their arms extended out of the windows and appear to be cooperative and surrendering. It was reported that a shot was fired at the passenger which led to the “run.” Although there is clear LEO activity and their weapons are trained on the vehicle and the passengers we cannot confirm if a shot was or was not fired by the LEO with the limited data provided.

    (Note: FBI claimed at a news conference that, obscured by trees, Ryan Payne actually exited the vehicle and was taken into custody. This cannot be seen at all in the video).

    The poorly positioned “Roadblock” but strategically placed “ambush point”: It is clear that Finicum began braking at his first possible visual of the roadblock and did not release the brake until after he veered off the road. On the video they had less than 3 seconds from their first visual of the roadblock to brake prior to inevitable impact. There are other variables, such as vehicle weight, occupancy, road conditions, speed etc. that could be calculated into this analysis, but typically it is accepted that a small sized car actually takes over 4.6 seconds to come to a complete stop in good weather and road conditions and over 10.6 seconds to stop in other less favorable conditions not including ice. Taking this into account we would assess that Finicum had no other choice but to veer off the road simply to avoid collision in the 3 seconds he had to take action in a heavy truck with passengers. He again appears to veer further to actively avoid the LEO that jumps out in front of his vehicle.

    Additionally the two trucks they used for the “ambush”: A grey/white truck with front lights on and a black truck with its lights off on a black top road with a snowy background. Neither truck having any other red/blue lights or even hazard lights flashing to the front. The third vehicle in the rear has two obscured blue and red lights flashing towards the back but would not have been easily seen by the driver of any vehicle approaching. These factors would have actually made the roadblock extremely difficult to see.

    (Note: there are very few, if any ‘blue lights’ on the vehicles, except visible to the rear. It is customary for law enforcement to have blinding blue lights on the time anytime they are stopping anyone at the side of the road, or for any reason – many of you will have been blinded by these excessive displays of blue lights. How did Finicum even know that he was running into a law enforcement roadblock?)

    There is an oddity starting at around 11:10. There is an agent in a black top who comes from the front of the roadblock, around to the left side of the screen, and comes to stand behind the agents who are sheltering behind the rear roadblock vehicle, weapons trained on Finicum’s truck. . He appears to be gesturing at the aircraft to back away. In response to this, at 11:40, the screen jumps back to a longer distance shot of the roadblock. What are the agents doing at this time? Why does he gesture the aircraft to back off? At 11:47 the aircraft is further on the circuit and the shot zooms in again. The man in the black top appears to be waving again and perhaps coordinating the agents, a couple of who are steeping out round the back of the vehicles to aim/engage Finicum’s truck. At 12;09 as you are able to see through the gap in the trees, you can see either lethal or non-lethal impacts into or behind the windshield. Did he want to video to back off so they could open fire?

  37. Lordchamp says:

    What’s happening here and all across the internet is exactly the intent of those releasing this video.

    Confusion, speculation, chaos, divided opinions, etc, etc, etc.

    Any and all of it serves their purpose.

    If there are not other video sources with and without sound, other than this one video, they are truly negligent, which also serves their purpose unfortunately.

    My point is that IF they had any interest in transparency and truth they would release ALL the video evidence at on time for our viewing. It’s as easy to release all as it is to release one.

    They did not do that, so their intent is obvious. As I said, confusion, speculation, chaos, divided opinions, etc, etc, etc.

    Most importantly division. If we can’t come to a firm conclusion of murder we can’t get together to put their heads on pikes.

    They know we don’t want to fire the first shot. They know we want to hold the “high moral ground.” They are playing that against us and they know it.

    While we use time speculating and “discussing” what happened, they go merrily on their way laughing at us.

    They know what happened, they have all the proof and they will never provide it to us until they are forced to do so by public opinion, the courts, a leaked document, an unavoidable situation, something will have to force them.

    That may take a week, a month, a year, or possibly never.

    Either way they win.

    They put it off until the public goes back to sleep and IF something definitive shows up, and those of us who actually care make a point of it, we will be labeled as crazy because “IF it had been important it would have come out initially” so we’re just making stuff up.

    It’s just who they are and how they roll as Max said.

    • Cat says:

      “What’s happening here and all across the internet is exactly the intent of those releasing this video.

      Confusion, speculation, chaos, divided opinions, etc, etc, etc”

      I would argue that the proper analysis conducted here is for the sole purpose of quelling the speculation and amateur analysis that I have seen concerning the limited data release. It isn’t opinion or speculation it is strictly objective analysis and observation.

      • Buckaroo says:

        “It isn’t opinion or speculation it is strictly objective analysis and observation”

        Unfortunately, we have a “garbage in, garbage out” situation here. The “evidence” is impossible to analyze; it is all from one point of view, shot at extreme distance, with no audio, and no supporting video/audio from other points of view to provide us with any contextual clues. And without any context, you can’t do any “objective analysis and observation”.

    • Curtis says:

      Max, note when the drone/helo pans off to the jeep, the comes back to the pick-up. At 3:54, lower right corner. On knees and hands behind neck. Interesting that video panned off as an arrest is made. This is supposedly when 2 shots were fired at Payne.

      Also note, just after LaVoy exists vehicle, the guy kitted up behind the black pick-up, just as the shooter starts positioning. The guy in the kit turns and proceeds to cover. Is this the first shot at LaVoy?

  38. Dale Burke says:

    Great analysis. I too was initially fooled watching on my phone. Further large screen review definitely led me to the exact same conclusions you’ve arrived at, including the inability to know a great deal. I also immediately stated that ground video/audio is necessary for a comprehensive analysis. The one thing that is certain is this did not need to happen, and that it happened as a direct result of the staging and preparation of the LEOs on the scene.

  39. […] Max Velocity: Comment: Video Bundy Arrest / Finicum Killing […]

  40. Dan says:

    One must look at these actions while remembering history….Waco and Ruby Ridge.
    The feds simply WILL NOT ALLOW anyone anywhere to oppose them and succeed. That simply cannot be allowed to happen. The incident at the Bundy ranch in Nevada is a rare exception, violence was not used for the simple fact that a LOT of people were there including a LOT of media. In this event they kept the media and other citizens far away from the area of operations. The weather and remoteness also kept potential witnesses away. So the decision was made that the odds of bad PR and damning video surfacing was minimal….thus a green light to formulate a plan and implement it.

    How long the feds would wait to move against the Bundy group at the refuge is an open question….but they didn’t have to wait. The occupiers gave them the opportunity they needed. The feds knew well before acting where and when these people would be traveling. They had more than enough time to set up a proper roadblock….instead they chose to set up where they did as an ambush.

    Curious how they had air cover WITH CAMERAS to conveniently record video…that THEY control and THEY can edit and THEY decide what is released and when. With modern technology one simply cannot trust what one sees anymore….it’s too easy to digitally alter the footage, and waiting two days to release it means they had ample time to do with that video as they wished.

    We must remember that government is violence.
    In it’s purest form it is nothing but coercion….if not by pressure than by bloodshed but everything the government does is backed by the credible threat of violence.

    The occupiers had displayed an unwillingness to be coerced…therefore violence was the automatic method of action by the feds. This ambush, the shooting and the death were intended.

    Ruby Ridge saw an illegal change in the ‘rules of engagement’. Now it’s shoot first, shoot a lot and don’t worry about the aftermath….what can’t be obscured, obfuscated and covered up will simply be ignored under the cover of ‘immunity’.

    Lavoy Finicum was the unlucky victim of a
    message. SOMEONE was going to die to insure
    that everyone in the ‘freedom’ movement pays attention. And that message is clear and blatant. Step out of line and die. That’s why Randy Weaver’s son and wife died. That’s why Koresh, the Davidians and dozens of children died and that is why Mr. Finicum is dead. NOBODY can be allowed to oppose the system and get away with it. Just as they shoot dogs on average every 90 minutes to constantly remind their subjects that they can kill with impunity so to they kill citizens to send the same message.

    People can debate all they wish about whether this ‘occupation’ was rational or not, whether there was a chance that this action could force change. But there is no
    room for debate about how government and their hired muscle will act when opposed.

    The lesson to be learned is simple. If you are going to do ANYTHING other than ‘complain and demonstrate’…..UNDER THEIR RULES then you must realize that they WILL respond with violence. So unless you have the resources to respond and resist military actions by thousands of federal troops posing as LEO you WILL die or go to prison. At the heart of the issue that is the message we were sent, the message they want understood. DON’T RESIST

  41. Whose to blame? says:

    The blame for this murder lies squarely with the coward, ignorant and fickle residents of Harney County who showed up at the community meeting and lambasted the protesters just because they were a nuisance to their comfortable little country lives. Once the cops/Feds knew that the protesters had lost in the court of public opinion, they went for the jugular.

  42. Jester says:

    Mark Koerber of the American Liberty Society and Free Capitalist.com just interviewed Shawna Cox who was released from Fed lockup in Portland. She was in Lavoy’s truck sitting next to Victoria Sharp. She is much older than Victoria, so her account is more observant so she articulates in detail everything that happened and everything that was said in the truck from the moment they began to be followed, to Lavoy’s death, and everything that happened after that. Including inside information. What she has to say is truly a bombshell. She confirms that Ryan Payne was almost hit with a projectile fired when he put his hands and head out the window at the first stop. She says that as soon as Lavoy’s truck hit the snow bank shots were being fired at them, and that Lavoy was fired on while he had his hands in the air. She claims Mark McConnell rushed the group to leave before they were even ready. That he insisted that Lavoy’s truck accompany him and Ammon, even though they were not ready to leave. And she recounts statements he made after they were all together in custody that will chill your spine. The audio is clear. Scroll down for the video. Interview begins at 12:30.

    http://www.freecapitalist.com/2016/01/31/second-eyewitness-chronicling-the-tragic-ambush-and-murder-of-lavoy-finicum-video/

    • Max says:

      Good. It corroborateseems Victoria’s statement. I submitted a comment on the vidow, because it appears theyes are not aware of this post and commnents, despite the Google alerts mentioned towards the end of the video.

      I think that Victoria and Shawna both have problems distinguishing between non-lethal and lethal incoming. I also can’t tell from the video the amounts of either. Either way, it would have been terrifying.

        • Janet says:

          Here’s another interview with Shawna Cox.

          The sound is much better, and there’s even more information. For instance, after Ryan Payne was shot at (at the first stop), she saw a red laser beam pointed at the top of LaVoy’s hat. LaVoy saw it too. That’s when he started yelling out the window to LE that he was going to see Sheriff Palmer at John Day, and if they wanted to shoot him, then shoot him, but he was going to the Sheriff.

          At the roadblock, she says they opened fire on the truck and LaVoy immediately.

          She speaks of gunfire, lasers galore, windows blown out,and one window being hit 5 times w/o breaking (the window nearest her head). Also, Ryan Bundy was shot in the shoulder.

          THEN, after they had exited the vehicle, she says a number of men, she guessed 24, came out from the trees. They had rifles, and they wore hats w/ binoculars on them.

          LE asked her 3 or 4 times if there was anyone left in the truck. She said no each time. Then they started riddling the truck with bullets again. This time, the window closest to where her head had been, was blown out. (I believe the window in front of that one was blown out while they were in the car. She was on the right side of the backseat.

          LOTS of information.

          https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=8aonuoxbeSQ#

      • Jester says:

        Mark McConnell is now on record on his FB account claiming that Victoria’s mother and 3 Wyoming citizens who were visiting all took the ride through that pass 20 minutes prior to Mark and his caravan leaving the refuge, and reported back to them that the road was all clear. The Refuge is 1 hour 20 minutes from the Joaquin Miller horse camp which is the nearest landmark to where the ambush occurred. Burns is 20 minute from the camp. Is he telling the truth but his memory is just fuzzy on the timing? The OSP and friends could have been staged at the Horse Camp or the nearby Idlewild campground waiting for word that the high value targets were on route, giving them a full 80 minutes to stage the ambush at their pre chosen location.

  43. I meant: Who's to blame? says:

    Damn auto correct

  44. Rommel says:

    Shawna Cox interview on Dave Hodges ‘The Common Sense Show 3rd hour tonight Sunday

  45. Palmetto says:

    A point that has remained consistent in these accounts is that Finicum kept shouting stuff like, “just shoot me!” throughout the ordeal. Regardless of his actual state of mind and his intentions, that isn’t the kind of stuff you want to be saying if you want to appear rational and stable. Someone who doesn’t want to be combative and who doesn’t want to be shot is being counterproductive to his purposes by shouting these things. Again, regardless of his actual intentions and state of mind, making statements like, “just shoot me!” Is not going to be processed favorably for him in the minds of the LEOs regardless of whether the LEOs are honest or evil.

    Additionally, when LEOs pull you over and give you commands at gunpoint, it isn’t part of the protocol that you have the option to decide to just refuse those commands and drive off to “talk to the sheriff.” But if you do decide to do that then you better be damn sure your decision is the correct one because you’re rolling the dice on your life.

    This stuff is not a game. There is no place for bravado and posturing. Folks need to be sober and clear about what they do when they choose to deal in life and death situations where they put their life on the line and the lives of others.

    The rest of the country now gets to endlessly analyze the instant replay and speculate about motives, and rats, and intentional murder, and conspiracies. But Finicum is still dead and Finicum isn’t coming back.

    The real lesson is people need to be dead sure about the choices they make and the people they deal with. If you are going to pick a hill to die on, make sure the hill is important enough to be the one to pick. If you are dealing with an enemy who you believe is a murderous, lying, treacherous, snake, then conduct yourself as if you could get bitten and don’t act shocked and indignant when you do get bit. After all, you were dealing with a snake.

    • Easy says:

      Well…

      I can only guess at his state of mind, but if what both witnesses that have come forward have to say is true, they were shot at at the first stop, then again when they rounded the blind corner into a road block that they didn’t have time to stop for and were shot at again, he was probably convinced that they were going to kill him either way.

  46. NavyJack says:

    I normalized the audio levels on the Shawna Cox Free Republic Interview to make it easier to hear what she is saying. You can listen to it here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmltE33Qs7A

  47. […] NavyJack 1/30/2016 at 7:36 am […]

      • NavyJack says:

        The article provides details that many others have not discussed:
        – Identification of the FBI personnel as an HRT unit.
        – A more detailed account of Ryan Paynes exit after the first gunshot at the initial stop.
        – A more detailed account of the time of Ryan Bundy’s injury and circumstances. Clearly live rounds were initially used at the roadblock (vice rubber bullets as some have suggested).
        – Communications between the people involved and the FBI during each stop.
        – The fact that the Sharp family vehicle was in reality Vehicle #1 and that they tried to notify the convoy of the upcoming roadblock.
        – Tactical details, including the number of laser red-dots aimed inside the track following the shooting of Mr. Finnecum.

  48. NavyJack says:

    Vehicle #1, a pickup truck with LaVoy Finnecum, Ryan Payne, Ryan Bundy, Shawna Cox and Victoria Sharp was not initially stopped. LaVoy, the driver, could have proceeded when Vehicle #2, the Jeep carrying Ammon Bundy, was pulled over well behind him.
    Had LaVoy proceeded, which I believe was the plan of the FBI HRT Team that was running this operation; he would have run into the roadblock ahead. This roadblock was situated on a short visibility run-up with tire blowout strips. Anyone approaching this roadblock without warning at highway speed would have just enough time to stop before either crashing into the blocking vehicles or diverting into the snowbank.
    Most of the FBI personnel at this roadblock were situated in the woods primarily to the right when viewed in the aerial footage released by the FBI, and near the placement of the blowout strips before the blocking vehicles. One agent was stationed in the woods to the left. The agent to the left had a long rifle and appears to be the designated marksman forward to the left and up the hill and from the kill zone. Additional agents to the right are seen running up to the scene from the lower right in the aerial video after Mr. Finnecum is killed. These agents all had assault rifles. What the FBI created was a right flanking kill zone with a designated marksman well forward to the left and up the hill and from the kill zone.
    Based on the positioning of FBI personnel, the types of weapons used, the statements of the surviving witnessed and the aerial video released by the FBI, it is clear that once a vehicle entered the kill zone, 10 yards in front of the road block, all occupants could be terminated if needed. Vehicle #1 went well past the designated kill zone and created a cross-fire situation for the State Police and FBI HRT.
    I don’t know what the FBI’s plan was, but it did not work when Vehicle #1 left the roadway. This created the cross-fire situation for the FBI personnel and the State Police at the roadblock. A State Police officer appears to break protocol to engage Mr. Finnecum with a pistol. He is directly in the line of fire from the FBI HRT placement. The plan, whatever it was, clearly failed at this point.

    • Easy says:

      Great analysis…

      and probably true. If that is the case, and what we observed is their standard ROE in cases like this,wow. It makes me wonder if the team that planned this op are FBI employees, or private contractors.

    • TheAlaskan says:

      I think we’re all missing the point a bit. It doesn’t matter if LaVoy had a gun or not. What should be realized is that the Federals decided that this meeting in John Day would not be allowed to happen. This group would not be allowed to spread their dangerous message of government abuse of power to another county…peaceable protest and free speech be damned. This was a clear message to the movement. Contrast that small group of protesters (white) and the federal response, to the large groups of protesters (black) in Ferguson and the federal response.

      This “idea” of the movement in all it’s labels; that is what they fear the most and that is why there was a roadblock. They were there to crush an idea and kill anyone who insisted in spreading it. But…an idea whispered can stop an army, if it is the truth.

  49. SP says:

    Not sure if anyone will find this interesting, but I came across a facebook post where some chap states that setting up an impassable roadblock is the same as using lethal force.

    Here is his post in it’s entirety.

    “Aside from the prior initial shots fired by the feds, Here are a few points about the roadblock. The supreme court, several (as in close to 20) years ago stated that the setting of an impassable road block is the same as the application of lethal force.

    Hence, the officers doing so should expect that should the driver they intend to stop, could likely lose his life should he have no way out. So, before, he ever leaves the road, the officers (in the courts eyes) have already applied lethal force, all while they have NOT been resisted to even close to that level.

    The force continuum is a long explanation but in short, you can go one level up for the level of resistance being offered. At the point the truck is attempting to escape, they are at escape resistance. Lethal force is 4 levels above that.” so in short they are already breaking their level of escalation rule and are in the wrong already before he is shot. not to mention he clearly came around a curve and swerve to miss them then again went left sharp to miss the officer running out in front of him opening fire through the front windshield (last frame of the video proves this).

    Also, on the video he reaches with his right hand toward his left side / chest / stomach in what appears to cover a gunshot wound he received either before he exited the vehicle or while he had his hands up. then the officer comes out of the tree line and shoots him in the head WHAT WAS HE DOING IN THE TREE LINE BEFORE FINICUM EVEN GOT THERE?

    Finicum is right handed carries his weapon on right side of belt line not left , so why would he reach for the left ? wrong side of waistband This reeks of a premeditated ambush to me , Also the sheriff welcomes him to his county townhall and then helps set the roadblock up ????”

    Again, I cannot validate this information as I’m not American. Though hopefully other blog posters can confirm or not the validity of roadblocks/lethal force etc.

    • NavyJack says:

      Five hours before LeVoy Finnecum was killed, both Oregon US Senators, Ron Wyden and Jeff Merkley, met with FBI Director James Comey and demanded immediate action to end the occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. Following the meeting, Wyden said the standoff was “a situation where the virus was spreading,” and action needed to be taken. The “virus” Wyden was referencing the upcoming meeting at John Day.

  50. […] a post for a week or so now, concerning patrol formations. But things have been busy with the post on the Finicum killing. I may yet get round to the patrol formation post, but given recent events, I have to ask myself: […]

  51. Ray says:

    Proof, if needed that radios and cell phones are useless to patriot units when they need them the most. I don’t know the name of the “kill switch device” but I find elegant proof of its use here. Second point. Bullet magnets are death traps. If they had been on foot or horseback they would have had options that were not available once trapped inside the “soft skin” bullet magnet. Third. No matter what your “cause” is or what weapon you carry , stupid is always fatal in a firefight. Belief, religion and “right” NEVER trump planning and firepower once you are in the kill zone. If there was a way to do the wrong thing, those guys found it, then did it for as long as they could.

  52. Autonomous says:

    Is it just me, or did the fbi guys seem scared, or at least uncertain? The way they are peering around their vehicles, and they way lavoy was shot (which is vugely remenecant of the way gangbangers shoot people on tv). That wasn’t weapon scared, that was “what am I suppose to do” kinda movements.. to me anyway

  53. #1.Liberty does not come from men.
    #2.Men who know #1, believe Patriots are armed by divine right, not religion.
    #3.Blood is the only recognized, global/universal currency, that can and does purchase liberty.
    #4.A Patriots blood is never shed in vain(Abraham Lincoln)
    #5. The war between Tyranny and Liberty, is inevitable.(Thomas Jefferson)
    #6. We all get to choose, which side we will be on.
    #7. We all must choose, no exceptions.
    #8. We all witnessed the murder/valiant sacrifice of a Patriot(Nathan Hale).
    #9. What will you choose to do?
    #10. End of statement.

  54. […] started or when or if they were asked to surrender. (A detailed analysis of the video may be found here. […]

  55. Easy says:

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3AxhW5O77TiV0J%3Atvoinews.com%2Ffeatured%2F15284%2F+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

    Interesting. This woman claims, or believes, that many of the enforcement elements there in Oregon are Foreign Private Military Contractors. She said she asked for ID from one guy with a police patch, and he would produce nothing, nor answer her questions.