Carrying Weight: Ammo & Plates: Thoughts

Team Leader SUT Class
March 23, 2015
Email: First Time TAB Experience, US Army.
March 25, 2015

Incidentally, I think I may have broken the internet with my post yesterday: ‘CUTT Maneuver: Patrol Formations & Actions on Contact’. I can see tumbleweed blowing past across my computer screen, so maybe that was a tactical bridge too far? Perhaps we should just stick to talking about gear? That is little tongue in cheek – but it does illustrate a frustration, which is that despite all this ‘talk’ and all this interest in learning tactics, most people out there won’t even do the basic thing, and get a grip of their tactical fitness. Beyond that, most can’t get beyond gear talk. Those of you who read this blog and are on the forum happily seem to be at a level beyond that.

But no. I’m not going to rant about lack of tactical fitness. The essential point remains the same, that you are wasting your time training for self-defense and tactics if you don’t do effective physical training. But I’m sick of the sound of my own voice on this one. So, moving on to the topic. But wait, it involves PT! Darn it…..

The has been some discussion on the forum revolving around my recent posts on the utility of .308, and the use of body armor. In summary:

1) I theorized that for a ‘graduate level’ Citizen Unconventional Tactical Team (CUTT)  serious consideration should be given to the option of employing .308AR rifles as an optional upgrade on 5.56. Links:

Citizen Unconventional Tactical Team (CUTT): Order of Battle

The Citizen Unconventional Rifle Squad: Arming with .308?

Arming the Citizen Unconventional Tactical Team (CUTT) by Absolute Survivalist (Owl21)

Now, one of the first things that happens is that people start complaining about the weight of a 308AR and the ammunition. To me, that isn’t the point, and it’s not the right mindset. Disclaimer: I did discuss this for a ‘graduate level’ CUTT which takes for granted that you have the PT side squared away. I am not telling you to scrap your AR15. I am suggesting that a 308AR may be a really good option, for the reasons given in the links.

The way I view it, is that if you decide that the ‘right tool from the toolbox’ is to take out your 308AR today, then you better have your fitness and gear squared away. The bottom line is your PT level, without which you are being delusional if you think you can conduct SUT.

Note: UWGear are currently in the process of creating a new rig for me, which I believe will be excellent and I will do a review on as soon as I receive it. One of the features will be mag pouch inserts so it will take either 6 x 30 round standard 5.56 mags, or 5 x .308 20 or 25 rounders (open top mag pouches). Excited. I’m running my DPMS 308AR named ‘the bitch’ because she kicks like a mule compared to my AR15. I TAB with her. She sits in her stable next to my AR15, so I have options. When you feel the kiss of that .308 recoil on your shoulder, it’s  a beautiful thing. It’s like perfect hate going downrange. Learn to love it kids, and stop whining.

So, if you take out your 308AR, you will have to carry heavier ammunition. You are making trades for the desired effect. If you feel an operational need, then make it work. Let’s look at the load in that rig I am talking about from UW Gear. I am either carrying 9 x 30 round 5.56 magazines (one on the rifle, two on the belt) at a total of 270 5.56 rounds. Or, I am carrying (with 25 rounders) 8 .308 magazines at a total of 200 .308 rounds (or 160 with 20 rounders). That is less ammunition, but the point is that you are carrying it for a reason, which is either long range shooting, or close range effects on cover (see cover shooting), or both. You are not going to pew-pew with your 308AR: you need to make your hits with aimed accurate fire, like a trained rifleman should do. Just because we may have lost the art of being a rifleman, doesn’t mean it’s right. So, no more tacticool square range pew-pew madness please.

In contact a trained rifleman will likely fire less rounds than in training,  particularly if you are engaging PID targets, or suppressing steadily and accurately. Make your hits. Whatever caliber you are shooting.

Now, it doesn’t mean that you have to show up for class with a 308AR now. You should do most of your training with your AR15 anyway, and keep her ready to go. I prefer that we stick with the AR15 at class anyway – because the 308AR is for ‘graduate level.’ Notice how I keep reinforcing that? If you can’t carry it and get the job done, then don’t try. If you can’t carry your AR15 and get the job done, then stay home and fight from the porch, and good luck to you.

Sustained fire is a rate of 10 rounds per minute, or 1 round every 6 seconds. Rapid fire is 30 rounds per minute, or one round every 2 seconds. Who shoots that slow on the pew-pew range? That is way too uncool for school. In contact, ammunition is time. Make your hits and shoot like a professional. Shoot to kill. Give shooters a toy and they will shoot it like a toy. No, I didn’t suddenly become an AR15 hater, I think it is great weapon. I also think the 308AR is a great weapon. Get your head around that – a non-extreme rational position on the caliber debate, based on utility of employment! I do however think that one of the dangers with the 5.56 is that its ease of use can lead to bad habits and pew-pew madness.

2) Body armor. This is a complicated one. If you get shot in the plate coverage area, then clearly you needed to be wearing body armor. Again, if you can’t carry it and move because your PT is not up to it, then you shouldn’t wear it. Mobility is the overriding factor. Then again, if you are immobile due to lack of PT, maybe you need body armor! But given the actual poor body coverage of plates, the enemy will keep pumping little tiny 5.56 rounds into your corpulent body as you are rolling around on the ground. So you will die anyway, and die tired. So guess what, we get back to PT again.

If you can’t move with it, don’t wear it.

I think the steel patriot plate thing is madness and simply a  con, particularly given most peoples poor level of fitness. It goes to a lack of understanding of basic skills and the need to take cover. You stand up on the square range right in front of the targets, so that how you will fight your ‘gunfight’ right?

I think also the reality is that in the kind of post-collapse environment that we are talking about, when this is day to day life, people won’t be wearing plates. They will get discarded. The reality is that the basic skills of a rifleman need to be worked on before we think about the need for ballistic plates. Do your PT and learn to take cover. I am increasingly going away from the use of plates, despite that fact that it is a good idea to be wearing them in a kinetic environment. Remember that the plate coverage area is very small, the last resort form of cover, and any kind of angle negates them. If you don’t take cover, you will take rounds to all the peripheral parts of your body anyway.

So by all means have plates. Have them as an option for specific missions. A sensible route with plates is to spend the money on lightweight effective plates (DKX plates are being talked about, and appear to be lightweight and excellent: JRH Enterprises is offering a discount on them if you mention you heard about them at MVT). I may well go this route. I think it is madness to consider wearing very heavy plates. You will become exhausted and your alertness and effectiveness will drop off.

So if you want to wear plates, do the PT and spend the money to get something lightweight. That is the sensible route.

So on the one hand I am telling you that more ammo weight is OK, but that plates may be too heavy. WTF? Because: do it if you reach the right tactical fitness level. PT is the key!

Let’s not just copy the military. One of the main things I try to do here at MVT is to learn the right lessons and turn military concepts, training and operational experience into something that works on the civilian side. Mobility is vital. You can’t perform SUT effectively if you are overly weighed down. Yes, you will have to carry a fighting load, which is no small amount of weight, but don’t end up like a turtle. You need to be fit enough to carry the required reasonable weight and move about the battlefield at a pace.

Max

 

46 Comments

  1. StarvinLarry says:

    Finally-someone says the steel plate idea is the insanity that it is. I could maybe see using them them if you are in an urban environment,and not moving very far,or if you’re in a somewhat fortified defensive position,where there isn’t going to be a lot of movement.
    I’ll concede the point that there are some people who are in good enough shape to hump steel plates-but they are not in the majority of freefor.
    Accurate aimed fire-that’s why I like the .308 scout rifle concept.Very few people agree with me on that,because the scout rifle is a 10-20 round bolt-action.
    I like the Savage better myself.

    http://www.ruger.com/products/gunsiteScoutRifle/models.html

    http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/11Scout

    If aimed,accurate fire is the goal,then why not a bolt-action?

    • Max Velocity says:

      Although I agree with you on the fist part, I don’t on the bolt-action.

      – Steel plates: even if you are fit enough to wear them, it’s still insanity, because you are still having to carry all that extra weight.

      – A bolt-action does not fulfill the requirement of a semi-automatic battle rifle. Fine if you just want to sit n a niche of ‘scout rifle concept’ but not if you have to fight through an enemy position, break contact, put down rapid fire, suppress an enemy position etc. You need to come on a class to get the concepts and application straightened out. Many misconceptions on the tactical side, but not the Rightful Liberty side.

      • StarvinLarry says:

        If it comes down to it-I won’t be runnin and gunnin anyhow-since I can not run due to past injuries.
        The scout rifle concept was if you could only have 1 rifle to handle hunting and possible use in battle.
        Col.Jeff Cooper’s scout rifle is the perfect W.Va deer rifle-right up there with the Winchester 94,Savage 99,and Remington 760/7600.
        I get the need for semi-auto. SCAR’s sucks-I’ve shot one,just didn’t like it.
        Making payments on two A-R’s now,one in 5.56 the other 7.62×51/.308
        Until then,I’m stuck with what I’ve got.

  2. Wes says:

    PT!!! Keep hammering it, Max. Fitness is the first step toward individual sovereignty.

  3. Wes says:

    Plates – a thought came to mind on that cold, single-digit morning during the February C2G Course. Steel plates would freeze a man to death in cold weather; as steel is an excellent conductor of energy, steel plates would serve as a heat sink and very rapidly suck the warmth from your body. Ceramic plates are not only lighter, they are also pretty cozy in the cold.

  4. Diz says:

    Too funny. I was going to say something along the lines of you will never see this kind of post at those patriot websites, like WRSA or whatever. But I didn’t want to be a dick about it. Well I said it any way so I guess I am.

    I had a week of contemplation, following our man down drills last weekend, but in the end, I think you just have to place your bets, and take your chances. Mobility and steel plates, not really going to mix.

    PT, PT, good for you, good for me.

    On CUTT chance contact drills. Looks good to me. Base of fire, single envelopment, consolidate on the objective. Someone pass me a mag, will you?

  5. D Dub says:

    Just because you yell PT and it echos back doesn’t mean no one is listening. I haven’t exercised in 4 years. I was over weight, had horrible cardio health and worst of all had no motivation. I signed up for a class earlier this year and I’ve been working out ever since. I’ve seen really great progress to and I can envision, because of your words and the AARs, what muscle groups to work out. This post is a great motivator to up the intensity and keep working. As a civilian who has yet to even take a class the only frame of reference I have to know how and how much to work out are your words. Don’t stop talking about it. I think you are doing much more good then you realize. PT!

    • Max Velocity says:

      We also offer tactical fitness plans on this site whcih will train you specifically for this work.

      Sometimes, sitting in my study, I feel like I am howling at the moon!

      • Pericles says:

        It is because there are so few real trainers out these, and the mass are used to the “SWAT” type training that has so little relationship to real tactics that many minds can not yet get there.

      • D Dub says:

        Max, thanks for the heads up on the work plan. I’ll check it out. If I may speak to all the people who read but don’t comment on here. The lurkers like me.

        Late last year I was reading about ISIS killing kids in Iraq. I was thinking about my kids and wife and how much I love and how if in a similar situation I would gladly die for them. Take a bullet, throw myself in front of a bus, run into a burning building, anything for my wife and kids. But then I realized if I was in Iraq that’s exactly what I would do. I would die. Because when I objective looked at our situation I realized that my wife could run further then me on a treadmill, my 15 year old daughter could carry more bales of hay then me. I couldn’t even beat my 8 year old at MarioCart. I would die for them but I wouldn’t get on the damn treadmill for them, I wouldn’t lift for them and I wouldn’t sweat for them. I didn’t have an excuse, I’m 36, no injures just laziness. I was the living breathing embodiment of Homer Simpson and I was sick of it. I got on the treadmill and I started running 3 minutes at a time and after 5 weeks I’m running a 9:40 mile and I just broke my record today of 25 minutes straight. I saw somebody mention burpees on the forum and I looked it up and I’m doing those now. I’m working on full blown chin ups but I’m not there yet. The point is that you’ve got a find a reason to work that is more compelling then a reason to sit. For me it’s my love of my family. If I’m not stronger then my wife how can I protect her. If I don’t have more endurance then my daughter who will she look up to. I signed up for a training with Max and that’s part of the motivation but only part. Find your reason to work and then do it.

      • Thomas says:

        Howling Mad Max?

        I howl at the moon regularly. It is liberating!

  6. Wes says:

    D Dub, that is awesome!!! Keep it up!

  7. Texasfredericbastiat says:

    One downside to the DKX plates is that they are only level III.

    It would be better to get some lightweight composite III+, which will stop the evil green tip. I like armour-wear’s plates. and they are priced great, too.

    but seriously, more PT. Do PT in your plate carrier. do PT with your plate carrier and your ruck. Stay low, move fast.

  8. Diz says:

    If it’s any consolation, Hawkeye and I have found that the kind of guy that buys our rig isn’t the internet commando who posts on line about everything. There are many guys who monitor this stuff and don’t comment much. I think it’s the same here.

  9. justin says:

    I might be speaking for myself, but I don’t think so. I don’t believe you broke the Internet with your post it was just well written and i couldn’t find anything that needed discussing, besides maybe go practice! I’ve re read yesterday’s post several times and am looking to print off the diagrams to use as training aids. It’s solid, straight forward, and we’ll explained! Only thing that i think needs to be said is study and practice!

  10. Wes says:

    I obtained these from Chase back in the fall when they were on sale:
    https://chasetactical.com/bd-3610-level-iii-multicurve-rifle-plates-nij-010106/dp/408

    Maybe I should have saved the money and put it toward NODs???

    • Alex says:

      “CUTT drills” post was not wasted. I bet most of the ” silence ” you hear is readers having enought respect for you to keep mouth shut , ears open.

      Some ( me ) file it for future reference , when ability catches up.

      And thanks to your “PT drum” me and my buddy just broke the 24 minute mark on the 2 miler. Time for a new bar , set higher.

  11. The Hobbit says:

    Max,
    While I agree that ceramic plates are superior for patrolling and real time use. Is there no benefit to training with steel plates? You are getting the increased PT associated with heavier weight therefore if and when you transition to ceramics you should have that much more tactical mobility due to training heavier then how you are fighting.

    Needless to say I am no expert in any of the above topics, just an avid reader of this and other blogs and hoping to make it to MVT in the next year or so to learn.

    • Max Velocity says:

      Your gear isn’t a weight vest. If you want to train to carry more weight, why not carry more ammo and water? Then it’s useful for real. Train how you fight. Move faster, keep lower….

  12. Thumper762 says:

    Max I know this is not about PT but if I may. All you cry baby’s talking about weight please shut up and run your mouth while running down the road. My first deployment to Iraq I was 42 years old did nothing but crossfitt and weights out of 43 people in my company all half my age appox maybe three could keep up with me. With all my kit, ammo, guns I weighed an extra 145 lbs that’s body armor M9 eight extra mags M4 twelve extra mags 240H , those of you who know can tell by now I was in an aviation unit. So when we would train E&E I carried all that gear and had to keep up with the pilots in there early 30s they would offer to help carry my 240 but there was no way in hell I was going to let them a pride thing and I was not going to fall behind. All that said it can be done so STFU and start doing some PT quit talking about your stupid gear and shit that can’t be done. I would rather have a dude with nothing but a rifle that knows how to use it and in shape than an out of shape guy with all the gear in the world. Do some Damm PT and quit crying about the 308 is to heavy. Fucking FOBETs.

  13. Thumper762 says:

    Oh and I only weighed 175 -180

  14. I plead guilty to all accusations and charges!

  15. Weary says:

    I like this post and a lot of the comments.
    My 2 pennies worth. PT ! well, after some time lurking on this site I realised that I had to do something about my lack of fitness, it was too easy to say “im nearly sixty” and my body is fucked from years of abuse, as the real abuse was too many chocolate bars. Been loosing weight for the last five months and doing a lot more cardio. So, thanks Max for the continued PT focus.
    with regard to 308, its all I know. am a Falklands vet living in the colonies, still shoot FAL’s and SLR’s. recoil got a bit painful for a while when I had a frozen shoulder, but fitted one of the lantac dragon muzzle breaks and this tamed it. Now only shoot suppressed with a restricted gas plug.
    I would like to come and do a referesher course, see how the Para’s do things differently to us bootnecks, but I just read that you have to be a resident of the USA 🙁
    Keep up the rantings, as most folk are like computers, you have to punch the information in

    • OldeEnglishCider says:

      @Weary – I was moaning to Max on email yesterday (again) about not being able to train at MVT. Like you I am non resident. Good to know there is at least 1 other Brit that feels the same. We should keep up the moaning, because after all we’re famous for it. If we can find extra people inc Canadians, then it could make it worthwhile for Max to get an ITAR licence. The key seems to be having enough demand.

  16. Diz says:

    You know this is silly bullshit, when millions of illegals flood our country but we can’t train a few good Brits/Canadians? So the illegals are given default citizenship by the asshole in chief, and could train at MVT, but those that play by the rules are SOL? Off topic but shows you why we’re training.

    • Max Velocity says:

      What is even more amusing is that I am teaching tactics, but I cut my teeth in the Brit army. But I can’t teach those tactics to Brits, without paying DOS an unknown amount of money for ‘ITAR.’

  17. John Lee Pettimore III says:

    On ammo.

    I doubt anyone thinks .308 is “too heavy”. But you can’t discount the fact that 10 lbs. of ammunition translates to what, 300 rounds of 5.56 loaded in mags. How much ammo is 10 lbs in .308?

    On armor.

    Times are changing, and just because some people have found ways to change with it does NOT mean they are blindly following U.S. Military dogma.

    Case in point:

    Crye Precision Jumpable Plate Carrier and 2 10×12 DKX rifle plates = 6.8 lbs. TOTAL.

    So let’s add say 1 lb for mag pouches.

    Throw it all together and that’s a plate carrier with front and back multi-hit rifle plates and 300 rounds of ammunition in loaded 30 round magazines.

    Result, 17.2 lbs of I can run around and fight all fucking day. IN ARMOR.

    • Max Velocity says:

      1) many seem to think .308 is “too heavy.” I don’t. It’s a balance of weight vs capability, it’s an option, just like 5.56.

      2) I didn’t see any complaint against the DKX plates. Only one question came up: do they stop M855? I’m considering going I JRH and mentioning this forum to buy some!

      As a rifleman you wil be loaded down to a certain extent with a sensible fighting load. That’s why people need the PT. Anyone who doesn’t think so is delusional.

      See you at the Challenege.

  18. WTL says:

    Max – first, great posts and thank you for the effort they entail. I see you are dead set against bolt-action in the makeup of the CUTTs. Given that a sniper-level role has proved to be a force multiplier since its inception, at what organizational size do see them playing a role (if ever)?

    • Max Velocity says:

      Not in the CUTT. Snipers are a strategic asset. In our intended situation they may support an operation involving a CUTT(s). They are a battlefield sensor. At the CUTT level we have the MSG with the DM or Support gunner.
      That’s if we are talking about real qualified snipers, and not simply sharpshooters?

  19. WTL says:

    Yes, qualified snipers – not couch-potato snipers 😉

  20. Thumper762 says:

    How much ammo in 556 do you carry? 200 300 ? I will carry the same amount in 762 what ever that number is. So everyone’s Argument about having to carry less ammo is mute. It is funny that the original post was about setting up a CUTT in 762 but it always turns to people talking about why they can’t do it. Why because they are fat fucks. It only proves the point that everyone needs more PT the answer is attitude how much do you want me to carry 20 25 lbs ok done maybe I will add 5 more lbs of ammo never quit always do more did I say NEVER QUIT BFTW! Till Valhalla!!!!!!!

  21. MtTopPatriot says:

    Thought you may like this Max:

    “A quick scan of historical literature shows that modern grunts are seriously short on strength and endurance, too. The U.S. Army, for example, proudly highlights its physical fitness standards—infantry recruits are expected to be able to run 12 miles in 4 hours by the end of basic training. Yet this is couch-potato stuff. Members of the Yuan Dynasty’s Imperial Guard in ancient China had to run 56 miles in 4 hours for their fitness test.

    Alexander the Great’s Macedonians, similarly, ran between 36 and 52 miles a day, for 11 days straight, in their pursuit of the defeated Persian king, Darius. The most leisurely pace of Roman armies, likewise, was 18 miles per day, but they often covered much more distance. In 207 BCE, for instance, the Consul Claudius Nero marched a Roman legion 310 miles in 6 days, at the rate of almost 50 miles per day, to meet and defeat Hannibal’s brother, Hasdrubal. This represents a dogtrot of 6 miles per hour, or about half the speed of modern Olympic marathon gold medallists—day after day after day. What’s more, marathon runners wear only light clothes, but Roman legionaries marched in full armor and carried extensive baggage.

    These days the U.S. Army, and even the Marines, limit every soldier’s load to a third of the average American recruit’s bodyweight which at an average 153 pounds works out to an approximate 50-pound load. Based on this rule, Nero’s soldiers, who weighed an average 145 pounds, should have carried just over 47 pounds for their ultra marathon; they actually carried up to 100 (two-thirds of their bodyweight).

    Other warriors, unburdened by such staggering loads, ranged even further, and faster. Shaka Zulu’s impis, for example, commonly ran over 50 miles a day when on campaign. One war leader of the East African Ruga-Ruga, Mirambo (‘Heaps of Corpses’), was similarly once recorded as running sixteen miles to attack a village, conquering it, and then running 30 miles to assault another.

    — Peter McAllister, Manthropology: The Science of Why the Modern Male Is Not the Man He Used to Be.

  22. MtTopPatriot says:

    I thought this is a great observation. I have never been in war type combat, but I have been in a few tight spots and participated in some potentially lethal experiences. It is certainly correct what is said about not being prepared is a contributor to that adrenalin rush, the hit that makes you jittery and wound tight as a watch spring. It is a horrid feeling, where focus is difficult to maintain, situational awareness is momentarily allusive. And I believe, from experience, not the least of having training from you Max, which clarifies many of the unknowns of combat through the knowledge learned of how to stay alive, stay in the fight, and if my training I sufficient, bring the fight to the enemy, putting him off balance, and that may be all the difference between living and dying. I must add too, it is not only bringing the fight, but it is being able to know the difference when to fight and when to disengage to fight another day. That is battle wisdom, keeping your wits about you, and knowing the differences.
    Like you say Max, it is a holistic thing.

    “And that’s when the adrenaline hits him. Hits all of them. A pulse-pounding wash, the thrill ride before the thrill ride. None care too much for this feeling. In fact, despite the frequency with which many dismiss these athletes as ‘adrenaline junkies,’ the term is actually one of the greatest misnomers in sport. Of the hundreds of athletes interviewed for this book, very few enjoy this rush. Most share professional kayaker Tao Berman’s sentiment: ‘I’m the farthest thing from an adrenaline junky. I can’t stand that feeling. If I’m feeling adrenaline, it means I’m feeling too much fear. It means I haven’t done my homework. It means it’s time to get out of my boat to reassess.’ But they are all flow junkies—the difference is critical.”

    — Steven Kotler, The Rise of Superman: Decoding the Science of Ultimate Human Performance

  23. Palmetto says:

    When discussing how much 762 ammo one is going to carry vs 556 ammo, weight is not the only consideration. It isn’t simply just an issue of doing more PT to carry more weight. To me, the more important issue is the question of real estate on one’s gear and the logistics of setting up the gear for efficiency and accessibility.

    This is not to argue, or complain, or make excuses – that is not my point. I’m just saying that I see a lot of emphasis being put on the weight factor with not much consideration for the bulk factor.

    By way of example, 8 30-rnd 556 mags is 240 rnds. It takes 12 20-rnd 762 mags to get the same round count. That’s 50% more real estate needed to get the same round count. Keep in mind that those extra mags need to be readily and easily accessible on one’s rig in a firefight – otherwise it just becomes “spare ammo” and dead weight in a fight.

    So, if someone wants to carry the same round count in a 762 load as they would in a 556 load, they are either going to have to sacrifice some other gear to make up the extra room or they are going to bulk up their load.

    Bulking up the load could require other compensations or adjusted expectations. For instance extra bulk could require a change to how one manipulates their rifle or their sling and extra bulk could mean exposing a higher profile when flopping prone in the dirt for cover.

    My point being, switching from carrying 556 ammo to 762 ammo requires consideration of more than just the weight difference.

    • G.W.N.S. says:

      I don’t think you need to go round for round with 7.62×51 vs 5.56, magazine for magazine would be acceptable in my opinion.

      A possible exception would be the Medium Support Weapon.

      I believe this is at least implied by Max in his Post – Citizen Unconventional Tactical Team (CUTT): Order of Battle.

      Paraphrasing:
      “This weapon (Medium Support Weapon (MSW) a longer heavier barreled .308, with bipod, and drum magazine)is carried by “Big Jim” just like the 240 always is, and can be wielded by him just like a battle rifle if he has to fight through.”

      Typically “Big Jim” has more usable real estate for this type of load.

      You make a legitimate point about the bulk though.

      Realistic training will prove or disprove a individuals theory whether or not they can truly carry a one for one round count.

  24. Submariner says:

    “My point being, switching from carrying 556 ammo to 762 ammo requires consideration of more than just the weight difference.”

    Exactly. The analysis starts with the weight of two 20-rd. mags of 7.62 equaling three 30-rd. mags of 5.56mm. The two occupy roughly the same volume pouch with the same number of columns of PALS webbing. Twelve mags of 5.56mm requires four pouches; eighteen mags of 7.62mm occupies nine pouches of comparable PALS footprint.

    The additional bulk (five pouches worth) has to be placed somewhere on the rifleman’s person even if weight is a non-issue due to enhanced fitness. Just as adding weight in various locations on a ship changes center of gravity leading to a change in stability so it does for the added weight and position of gear on a rifleman. It may not be a deal killer; however, it’s overall effects must be considered.

  25. Chad says:

    Max,

    The DKX plates will stop a .308, but not the faster moving 5.56 rounds like common 55 grain. Lightweight is great- but not if it won’t stop the rounds you’re most likely to face.

    Level 4 armor (if you go with the 8×10 plates weigh only 5.5 lbs (2.5kg) and they will stop pretty much anything you’re likely to face. They weigh marginally more than the DKX, but stop many more rounds and cost half the amount.
    http://infidelbodyarmor.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=176

    If I’m going to wear armor, it’s going to be worth wearing. I personally train with plate and without. I will decide to wear them as the mission dictates.

    Chad

    • Max Velocity says:

      That not correct about DKX. Somewhere in here or the forum is a note from the manufacturer. The plates will stop common 5.56 such as 55 grain, but apparently not M855. They demonstrated most of this in that video, just not the green tip.