Feedback Requested – Training Classes Scheduling

Student Review: Night Optical Device Firing (NODF) 20 June: Corporate Guy
June 24, 2014
Student Review: Combat Lifesaver (TC3) 20 June: Rob
June 26, 2014

It is certainly true that the evolution of the class offerings and structure at MVT have come in part from consultations with students, as well as out own observations on how to improve what we offer.

When we added the Combat Patrol class, it was a prerequisite to have attended CRCD. Because of requests from students who had a long way to travel, and wanted to knock it all out in one go, we added the 5 day combined class, which has since become 6 days with the addition of the  TC3/RMP in front.

In two posts over recent days, I have explained the new prerequisites for CRCD:

‘Changes to MVT Class Attendance Prerequisites’

‘CRCD Places Available (predictably)!’

Here is the new class prerequisite training policy:

1) RMP will remain optional but strongly encouraged prior to CRCD classes, even for alumni. We all need refresher training, as much as we can get.

2) CRM will be mandatory as a prerequisite to CRCD classes, unless:

    • you can demonstrate that you have taken at least 16 hours of accepted weapons manipulation training. MVT will have the final say on what training/schools we accept. Don’t try and bluff it, you are only cheating yourself.
    • those currently booked onto CRCD classes as of the date of this post will be grandfathered in and will not require CRM. However, RMP is strongly encouraged (CRM encompasses RMP, and both classes are still encouraged prior to CRCD).

3) If, despite these prerequisites, you are able to bluff your way onto a class, and the remedial training/individual attention required to get you up to speed will affect the training experience of the rest of the class to an unacceptable level, MVT reserves the right to stand you down from the class. We haven’t done it yet, but with these new policies there isn’t really any excuse. One of the main problems we have is with students who have training scars from bad schools or self-training. RMP helps with this, but CRM helps a lot more.

Predictably, there have now been calls to schedule CRM and CRCD consecutively, rather than concurrently as happens now. There are some conflicts here, and I am going to lay it out for you and see what sort of feedback we get. These options / considerations are for planning purposes for the new training schedule beyond January 2015, and won’t affect the current 2014 schedule:

1) As a rule, we schedule classes mainly on weekends, or incorporating weekends,  because most people work and weekends are easier to get time off. We try to lessen the impact on your vacation days. Both Aaron and I have various commitments which means we usually schedule 2 perhaps 3 weekends a month, depending how many there are in that month, for MVT training.

2) I have the following suggestion as a possible compromise on the concurrent or consecutive scheduling of the CRM & CRCD training:

  • Cancel the current 5 day combined CRCD / Combat Patrol class. Run Combat Patrol independently once per quarter. It is a 3 day class and currently the top of the progression triangle in terms of what MVT offers.
  • Work on 1 concurrent CRM / CRCD training weekend a month. Saturday and Sunday for both classes, as we do right now. TC3/RMP would precede this class on the Friday, mainly as a refresher for those who completed CRM or CRCD some time ago, or who did the 16 hours of equivalency training, which probably won’t turn out to be equivalent or adequate 😉
  • Allocate the other weekend per month  to a combined CRM / CRCD consecutive class. In this case, RMP will not be necessary, which gives the option for a full optional TC3 day. Something like:
    • Thursday: Optional TC3 training day. 8 hours rather than 4 hours TC3 instruction.
    • Friday & Saturday: CRM.
    • Sunday & Monday: CRCD.
    • This option would work for Aaron and I with his non-MVT commitments, and also minimize impact on your vacation days. I assume it is easier to take a Friday and Monday off than mid week? If we incorporate holidays on the Monday, that makes it easier – something I currently do with Combat Patrol, such as Memorial and Labor day. I may or may not keep those holidays for the Combat Patrol scheduling. That’s what sick days are for, right? 😉
  • If we did the 4 (5 day with TC3) combined class once a month, the priority would go to those who are taking the whole class. If there were spaces available, then they could go to those who just wanted CRM, or CRCD if they had already met the prerequisites.
  • Combat Patrol, and other classes such as CHM, would be fitted in on the ‘third’ weekend as appropriate. There may also be scope, for example, for Aaron to run CRM or CHM while I am running a Patrol class.

So there you go, options. I would like to hear feedback. Please remember that we have to find middle ground that will work for most people.

Of course, we don’t have to do any of this. We could just keep it as it is and run CRM when we run CRCD. See these comments from one of the posts, discussing this issue:

Comments welcome.






  1. JeffSags says:

    So the options we are discussing will begin in January 2015. The current schedule will not change! Got it!

    I like the options as you’ve laid them out. It would fit my schedule nicely. I, or other alumni, could attend a stand alone CRM or a stand alone CRCD or a stand alone CP. It would also allow new enrollments to take combined classes to save on travel expenses. Additionally, it looks like you would not be overly reliant on any one type of client. You obviously need to attract new students, but you must also offer classes to the alumni and you would want to avoid alienating either or both. It seems the proposed schedule strikes a nice balance.

  2. RobRoySimmons says:

    Just curious would peace time combat arms Marine Corps service count to your 16 hour requirements? I would guess not but it might help give a good many of your readers another reference point

    • Max Velocity says:

      Here’s the thing: military training would of course count. However, I want people to be honest with themselves:
      When was the last time you did weapons training?
      When in the military, did you do much weapons training or never at all? i.e. what was your branch/MOS?
      How perished are your skills?
      This applies to civilian equivalency training also.
      Simply don’t try and bluff it – are you relatively up to speed, or trying to bluff prior experience?
      You may find yourself on the bench.
      I deliberately did not specify that the 16 hours was a civilian school or military training.

      • Skittles says:

        Agree with Max. As a combat vet i still see skills that have each time i attend a course. Granted im better off than most because of my training but theres always room for improvement and sword sharpening.

  3. Dennis W says:

    I think the way you proposed it should work pretty good. I covers all the bases and gives the students some options.

  4. Mike H says:

    I like the look of the new scheduling. I would also have trouble attending a 5 day class because of how far I travel. I used two days to get to WV and then back home. I would attend the three day RMP/TC3/CRCD(and will again). I also feel having the quarterly Patrol classes are a good fit. That’s another class I want to get to.

    I work rotating shifts and my schedule comes out in November for the next year so this new scheduling will work for myself.

  5. HiDesertRat says:

    When I first signed up it was for the CRCD and CP immediately following, as I am coming from across the country, have to use my time and resources efficiently. Within a week or so, the CRM and TC3 classes became available, and I knew that I would benefit from their content, so signed up, and fortunately, they immediately precede the other 2 classes. Having read your recent comments yesterday, I wouldn’t be all that surprised that CRM/TC3 becomes mandatory before too long. After all, as you pointed out, everyone benefits by not having their ‘head in the rifle’ during class as it slows instructors, the other participants, and individual ultimately. TC3 should be mandatory regardless, IMHO, as is essential training in the type of environment that is present at MVT facility. It illustrates that everyone involved is cognizant of the real hazards and a willingness to confront potential emergencies in an open manner from which all would benefit, and I think promotes an image of MVT as an ‘ahead of the curve’ training facility in every regard. In the future for folks coming from afar, or have limited time, the training available may be affected, however it seems that as the facility evolves, these needs may be addressed by expansion and/or progress in a different format or construct. I am thankful that this years schedule is not affected.

  6. Scout5412 says:

    I like the potentially new schedule you have proposed because it makes sense based on the prerequisites you want for students. It would be nice to hear from some of the alumni on the proposal.

    • Skittles says:

      I am an alumni. Statement still stands. Like Aaron stated you dont go to the gym once and call it good. What Max is trying to accomplish is the most training for all who come. Be it a new person or a returning alumni. In order to do so the basics need to be solid. CRCD and Combat Patrol are advanced courses. The more on line the class is as a whole the more knowledge and training he can share. That goes beyond just the intended course material. The prerequisite courses and recomendations square the basics up.Unfortunately we all have day jobs and responsibilities. There is no perfect solution for all. But this is damn fine solution and compromise in my opinion.

  7. Christopher Grieb says:

    There is another option. Just offer two classes. The first class is the combined Combative Rifle Manipulation and Combative Handgun Manipulation class (4 days) this will be the “square range” part of the Max Velocity School. This will be incredibly useful with guys like me who have never shot a gun in their life to learn the basics. The second class is the combined Combat Rifle/ Combat Drills and Combat Patrol class (5-6 days) this will take what was learned on the “square range” and applied to real life light infantry tactics for the civilian marksman. In order to do the combined Combat Rifle/ Combat Drills and Combat Patrol class one must first pass the combined Combative Rifle Manipulation and Combative Handgun Manipulation class or equivalent sixteen hours of “square range” training by other schools.