Militarized Police Operations: Grozny.
It’ll never happen here, right?
Armored Assault on Grozny – Combat Power depleted by 75%
The takeaway? Chechens are strong on tribes, family and value freedom over life. They were at a 4:1 disadvantage over the Russians and kicked their butts back to Moscow. From Wikipedia: :The First Chechen War took place over a two-year period that lasted from 1994 to 1996, when Russian forces attempted to regain control over Chechnya, which had declared independence in November 1991. Despite overwhelming numerical superiority in men, weaponry and air support, the Russian forces were unable to establish effective permanent control over the mountainous area due to numerous successful Chechen guerrilla raids. For three months Russia lost more tanks (over 1997 tanks) in Grozny than during the Battle of Berlin in 1945.”
I guess that cements your urban vs. rural point. The Chechans owned the woods and used that as a base to infiltrate Grozny. 3-4000 Rebels wiped out 7500 Soviets and forced a cease fire. Amazing people.
Careful what lessons you draw from the Chechen wars. The country has been back under Russian control since the Second Chechen War. Not to mention that many of the hardcore Chechen jihadist types are mixed up with AQ and other undesirables.
Lots of great lessons to be gleaned from specific battles and overall tactical methods, but not exactly a blueprint for victory.
Yep, because the Tsarnaev brothers really valued freedom. (sarc)
Yup, we’re Americans, history doesn’t apply here, right?
Sobering to look at those pictures and imagine it is your own town or city.
While studying historic operations, here is a vid about Executive Outcomes’ operation in Sierra Leone. 100 pro’s versus 10,000 raging morons.
keep in mind that gw was supporting the chechens prior to 9/11 and dropped them like a hot potato(like so many other allies before),and gave putin carte blanche to finish them off in return for intel on al-q and a jump-off point in east fukministan.. they only went to al-q in desperation, like the free syrians now. these were proud freedom loving people, oppressed for decades. what would you do in their place? watch your children slaughtered in the street? or do some slaughtering yourself? i don’t blame them for hating us, we sold them out. our govt needs to stick with a side once picked, no matter the politics.
Negative, its one thing to be pissed at the Kremlin and kill soldiers, its another thing entirely to kill civilians in a theater, or take CHILDREN hostage (Beslan Massacre). Such actions are NOT legitimate resistance, its murder and oppression.
Atrocities like these are exactly what happens when a revolution looses the moral high ground or never had it to begin with. Look at the French revolution vs the American revolution. Lessons can be learned from any conflict and they may not always be tactical in nature. Often the lesson learned is how NOT to conduct a campaign. Victory at all costs can cost you the victory. When a revolution descends to attacking innocents ALL IS LOST. As an example. I can justify not taking armed combatants as prisoners, sometimes it’s just not possible. That however is very different from targeting women and children.
the russians killed their women and children for decades. you condemn the chechens for beslan? the russians killed more of the casualties in beslan than the chetchens. they couldn’t be seen as week and negotiating with “terrorists.” maybe with a little patience it would have ended differently, i doubt it, but we will never know now. i don’t condone what they did, but i understand their frustration. imagine your country overrun and persecuted for 40 years. raped of resources, polluted, robbed of anything usable, starved so they could have more bread in moscow, your women raped for sport, murdered from bordom, and if you even look wrong you are shot down or disappeared. what would you do? well you better figure it out, cause here it comes. good luck.out.
“the russians killed their women and children for decades. you condemn the chechens for beslan?”
River, how does that matter? Did any of the teachers or kindergarteners at Beslan oppress any Chechens? Did they rape any Chechens? If it was ok to rape and kill someone for actions of their ancestors, then NO ONE on this planet would be alive today.
“the russians killed more of the casualties in beslan than the chetchens”
That is because the Chechen terrorists were so cleverly diabolical that they virtually booby trapped the ENTIRE school and set up multiple ambushes and strong points. I’m confident that even SEAL Team 6 (CBQ-CT Team) or an entire SAS CT Squadron would have had the same difficulty clearing the school without harm to hostages.
“i don’t condone what they did, but i understand their frustration.”
Lol, yeah, well I imagine that the families of the raped and killed hostages are pretty pissed too. Let us hope that none of the survivors of the attack go into the revenge business too, or it will be Chechen kids that get hit out of “frustration”.
“what would you do? well you better figure it out, cause here it comes. good luck.out.”
Me? I WOULD NOT harm kids! I would only go after adults directly responsible for such atrocities, but that actually requires some humanity and testicular fortitude…something which the Chechen’s at Beslan lacked. So they took the pussy route to Hell.
I must say River, your defense of the Beslan terrorists gives the rest of us in the threeper/liberty movement a bad name. Congratulations, you just made a statist’s/collectivist’s propaganda job, much easier.
statist’s job easier? the statists think anybody that thinks differently is a terrorist. they are the very ones that labeled the chetchens terrorists when their freedom was no longer of use to the state, and drove them to these atrocities. i’m just saying find out what happened before you repeat what the state says, and then put yourself in their place because frankly you will be in their place in a few years…..gives threepers a bad name? then you weren’t much to begin with. if you want freedom you have to recognize everyones’ right to be free as well as your own. if not, you’re no threeper, you’re just a rino in threeper clothes. pussy route to hell? at least they DID something besides sit on their ass and whine into a keyboard. attacking me doesn’t count.
River, I ask you again. How does raping and killing children bring about Chechen freedom? You have no defense, there is no defense for pedophilic rapists and child murderers! You are NOT a threeper who loves liberty, you are just another sociopath who loves anarchy and wants to dominate others. Let me guess, you supported McVeigh too huh? Pathetic.
Do we need some forum moderation here? 😉
I will say this: although I consider it legitimate to fight tyranny, I see that legitimacy being maintained only by targeting enemy (Regime) combatants. Yes, they may all not be in uniform, but it needs to be targeted strikes against Regime personnel, including enablers.
I do not condone ‘terrorism’ by which I mean the arbitrary killing of innocent’s including children. Bombs in market places fulfill my definition of terrorism.
Sorry Max, I didn’t intend to hijack this post, and normally I don’t call people out in this fashion. But I believe that it is important to show the average visitor to this blog that those who support attacks on children are a clear minority.
i stated several times i don’t condone what they did. i understand why they did it, which is different. if i’m the sociopath, why are you the one attacking me and trying to dominate me? and no one knows what they’ll do or who they’ll kill until they see their kids ground up under tank treads in the square. btw, your beloved 3% dealt their share of atrocities during the revolution, even after, and sherman’s yankees did much worse. unless you’ve lived thru it, don’t judge. thats all i had to say. out.
“i stated several times i don’t condone what they did. i understand why they did it, which is different.”
No, that’s semantics.
“if i’m the sociopath, why are you the one attacking me and trying to dominate me?”
So now you’re the victim? Forgive me if I think that adults should be accountable for the stupid and insane things they say.
“and no one knows what they’ll do or who they’ll kill until they see their kids ground up under tank treads in the square.”
It is true that no one knows exactly how they will react to a given situation, but we should all try to maintain our humanity. If my kids are ground up under tanks, the proper response is NOT to grind the children of my enemy up! No matter how you want to frame it, killing innocent children is EVIL. An acceptable response instead would be to grind the tank driver up. Punish the guilty.
“btw, your beloved 3% dealt their share of atrocities during the revolution, even after, and sherman’s yankees did much worse. unless you’ve lived thru it, don’t judge.”
There are always bad apples in any group, but most men in both the Revolution and the Civil War conducted their struggles with honor. Neither the Continental Army, nor the rebel militias killed women and children en masse, instead they expelled Loyalists to Canada (made them give up property, but not life). Most of the stuff attributed to Sherman was either made up, or cannot be confirmed. I criticize him for killing surrendered POWs, and I criticize his troops for burning Atlanta (although Sherman did not order that). I don’t criticize him so much for taking civilian food, since armies didn’t have too many rations yet. I criticize him for burning homes and plantations (although it is much nicer to destroy property rather than people). I personally try to not judge figures of the past, but some criticism is valid nonetheless.
ahh, but our past is but a window into our future. do you think human nature will magically change? hasn’t for thousands of years. and now i’m stupid and insane as well as a statist anarchist? hmmm, me wonder doth thou protest too much?
Human nature wont change, but that doesn’t mean that I have to sell my soul and go down with the dredges of humanity just to live. History also teaches us what NOT to do. Despite their ruthlessly diabolical efforts the Chechens appear to have surrendered to Moscow, and now do the kremlin’s bidding.
I never said that you were a statist. But stupid, insane, and anarchy are all synonyms.
opinions are like assholes. everybody has at least one.